Jump to content


- - - - -

Alchemist discussion


  • Please log in to reply
36 replies to this topic

#21 Cuban-Communist

Cuban-Communist

    Custom member title

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1640 posts
  • Bnet Name:Cuban-communist
  • Bnet Realm:none

Posted 14 July 2010 - 05:13 PM

The only other interesting item i've seen is madness mask. It's like a cheap alternative to sange yasha. An armlet madness is a sort of no holds barred early game DPS build that can let you rampage through heroes by 25-30 minutes much better than radiance. Only problem is that you are scary vunerable outside ulti, you need more support, and if the game goes long those items lose their effectiveness quite quickly.

He has something like 470 movespeed with ulti + madness. And some absolutely INSANE attackspeed.

Edited by Cuban-Communist, 14 July 2010 - 05:14 PM.


#22 pezzaperry

pezzaperry

    I'm Boxxy ya see?

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2511 posts
  • Bnet Name:Pezzaperry
  • Bnet Realm:Lordaeron

Posted 14 July 2010 - 06:34 PM

But he has insane attack speed with a hyperstone too, and it's more effective too because he doesn't lose health as quick. The lifesteal orb doesn't suit him as much as a sange and yasha would.

#23 Cuban-Communist

Cuban-Communist

    Custom member title

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1640 posts
  • Bnet Name:Cuban-communist
  • Bnet Realm:none

Posted 14 July 2010 - 08:16 PM

^Movespeed. 15% is not to be underrated. Gives him everything he needs to chase for 2k less than sange yasha + hyper. Most heroes don't trade hits with him, so extra damage isn't a big deal, especially with lifesteal and your ulti on.

S&Y is good, but the cheapest DPS chaser build is armlet + madness IMO. 5k for massive hp, some armor, great DPS and great chasing ability. If you are going for a late game Alch by all means radiance sange yasha AC type builds. But sometimes you want the quick and dirty win, pressing home an early advantage or just trying to stay useful after a shitty early game.

#24 Negi3

Negi3

    Untelligentsia

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 4263 posts
  • Interests:Being an asshole
  • Bnet Name:Prodota.ru
  • Bnet Realm:Lordaeron

Posted 14 July 2010 - 11:19 PM

Vanguard is important on him. Think of it this way: ult gives you more hp = more damage you can block with vanguard. More importantly he is squishy as fuck when is ult is down. I'm by no means a great alch player but I know a good build when I see it.

#25 pezzaperry

pezzaperry

    I'm Boxxy ya see?

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2511 posts
  • Bnet Name:Pezzaperry
  • Bnet Realm:Lordaeron

Posted 14 July 2010 - 11:30 PM

QUOTE(Cuban-Communist @ Jul 15 2010, 02:16 PM) View Post

^Movespeed. 15% is not to be underrated. Gives him everything he needs to chase for 2k less than sange yasha + hyper. Most heroes don't trade hits with him, so extra damage isn't a big deal, especially with lifesteal and your ulti on.

S&Y is good, but the cheapest DPS chaser build is armlet + madness IMO. 5k for massive hp, some armor, great DPS and great chasing ability. If you are going for a late game Alch by all means radiance sange yasha AC type builds. But sometimes you want the quick and dirty win, pressing home an early advantage or just trying to stay useful after a shitty early game.


S&Y is better on Alchemist than Mask of Madness. You say MoM + Armlet gives a quick early game advantage for early pushes, but still radiance does it better, and it helps him late game with more farm too. S&Y gives a movement speed bonus too, and it gives +hp +armour and an orb effect that will actually help him severely providing he got a hyperstone/ac first.

I don't think MoM is even situational on Alchemist in all honesty, you seem to have just discovered the all-so-mighty item but it's a lot worse than you make it out to be, especially when Alch goes in the front lines only to take extra damage when he's aimed.

Like I said Negi vanguard is a good item but I find it wasteful if you are doing very well in lane and could grab a sacred relic first. It's still good but at least get radiance afterwards rather than a pipe or a hood.

#26 winddragon

winddragon

    Enthusiast

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 607 posts
  • Bnet Name:WindDragon
  • Bnet Realm:none

Posted 15 July 2010 - 02:40 AM

I find the don't-get-vanguard on alche thing much like the don't-get-vanguard on cent. If you don't get vang you lose a lot on tankiness, which is his main reason till later in the game.

QUOTE(pezzaperry @ Jul 15 2010, 09:30 AM) View Post

Like I said Negi vanguard is a good item but I find it wasteful if you are doing very well in lane and could grab a sacred relic first. It's still good but at least get radiance afterwards rather than a pipe or a hood.

I agree completely with pezza here. A hood after vanguard is complete overkill, and you lose so much on dps...

#27 Galnafisken

Galnafisken

    Enthusiast

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 503 posts
  • Bnet Name:Elgamberro
  • Bnet Realm:Lordaeron

Posted 15 July 2010 - 04:41 AM

QUOTE(pezzaperry @ Jul 14 2010, 03:07 PM) View Post

Radiance with Vanguard is definitely doable. Look at my replay, I'm pretty sure I dodge Vanguard for radiance straight up. Satanic seems bad because it just doesn't really help what he needs though... I would way rather Radi/AC/SnY, you just don't die with that much armour and that much HP in your ultimate form.

Vanguard is a good item yeah but I think it is overused on him by a lot of competitive players, I get kind of annoyed when an Alchemist has just gotten freefarm in mid and decides to go Vanguard+Hood rather than something that will actually help your farm and help the team massively (radiance).

It's not like I claimed I build Satanic before I go AC or Radi right? Read it again, I would build Satanic after I've finished that Radi and AC, if the game was still dragging along, Satanic is for very late game, it's awsome on him, I promise you that, it's like you have a Aegis every team fight.

I don't see how it's overrused or why it is a bad idea to rush Vanguard on him even with really good farm mid, Vanguard fits his playstyle just perfectly, early game with ulti up and vanguard + treads his a fucking pain in the ass to take down, with a Radi after that you can basicly start to push towers and try end the game, I see him as a kind of tank/aoe/dps/disable hybrid, meaning you want to soak up some damage while you also deal great amount of damage, and Alchemist is just perfectly capable of that, the beauty of him, is that Vanguard doesn't really delay stronger items like AC or whatever, because of his goblins greed is just a fucking awsome farming skill, at this point of this game (20+) you should have maxed it, his a farming machine.

#28 Cuban-Communist

Cuban-Communist

    Custom member title

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1640 posts
  • Bnet Name:Cuban-communist
  • Bnet Realm:none

Posted 15 July 2010 - 07:29 AM

QUOTE(pezzaperry @ Jul 15 2010, 03:30 AM) View Post

S&Y is better on Alchemist than Mask of Madness. You say MoM + Armlet gives a quick early game advantage for early pushes, but still radiance does it better, and it helps him late game with more farm too. S&Y gives a movement speed bonus too, and it gives +hp +armour and an orb effect that will actually help him severely providing he got a hyperstone/ac first.

I don't think MoM is even situational on Alchemist in all honesty, you seem to have just discovered the all-so-mighty item but it's a lot worse than you make it out to be, especially when Alch goes in the front lines only to take extra damage when he's aimed.

Like I said Negi vanguard is a good item but I find it wasteful if you are doing very well in lane and could grab a sacred relic first. It's still good but at least get radiance afterwards rather than a pipe or a hood.


Not arguing it's a better build. But its a 5k build instead of a 10k build. I should hope radiance sange yasha is better.
My point is that it's a cheap alternative, play with it before you knock it. My only problem with the build is that you are so vulnerable outside ulti.

If you are going to push base by 30 minutes, I'd rather have that build than a radiance ogre axe.

#29 RaKMaNiNoFF

RaKMaNiNoFF

    Enthusiast

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 584 posts
  • Bnet Name:RaKMaNiNoFF
  • Bnet Realm:Northrend

Posted 15 July 2010 - 08:47 AM

QUOTE(Negi3 @ Jul 14 2010, 11:19 PM) View Post

Vanguard is important on him. Think of it this way: ult gives you more hp = more damage you can block with vanguard. More importantly he is squishy as fuck when is ult is down. I'm by no means a great alch player but I know a good build when I see it.


Well I half-heartedly agree here. Equally it could be said that high-armor heroes amplify the HP from vanguard better, and the HP is certainly the main component of vanguard. And alchemist doesn't desperately need regen. It's so difficult to analyse things like this. All I can say is I've played 5 games without vangurd on alchemist in the last 2 weeks and I missed it.

#30 MuMiX1

MuMiX1

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 117 posts
  • Bnet Name:MuMiX
  • Bnet Realm:Azeroth

Posted 15 July 2010 - 09:54 AM

If you combo alch with another armor reducer such as vs or nevermore, you have great dps without any dps items.

I've tried both vanguard and non-vanguard and think I favor the vanguard route.  I feel like a childhood bully, picking on all the squishies without fear of retaliation.  I can be a complete ass with that vanguard.

I usually lane with another stunner instead of solo mid.

#31 RaKMaNiNoFF

RaKMaNiNoFF

    Enthusiast

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 584 posts
  • Bnet Name:RaKMaNiNoFF
  • Bnet Realm:Northrend

Posted 15 July 2010 - 11:09 AM

Venge+Alch has is a double stun lane with an extra element of synergy that you can reduce their armor by 7 at level 4.

#32 Cuban-Communist

Cuban-Communist

    Custom member title

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1640 posts
  • Bnet Name:Cuban-communist
  • Bnet Realm:none

Posted 15 July 2010 - 08:49 PM

^It's not really synergy since the armor reductions work just as well separately as together. Not to nit pick. It's just that its as much synergy as duel stunners or alpha wolf with drow because the aura's stack.

But yes that is a nasty lane. I will say that the 2 -armor spells have good synergy in that creeps will take more damage from Acid since it's physical.

#33 RaKMaNiNoFF

RaKMaNiNoFF

    Enthusiast

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 584 posts
  • Bnet Name:RaKMaNiNoFF
  • Bnet Realm:Northrend

Posted 16 July 2010 - 12:59 AM

It's synergy in that one armor reducing spell can be vaguely countered by an RoB. (assuming an RoB is marginally worth it on at least one hero in a dual lane - it becomes ''worth getting''). However, two armor reduction spells practically guarantee that the opponents armor is going to be at 0 or slightly below.

Then yes, terror amplifies spray.

#34 Cuban-Communist

Cuban-Communist

    Custom member title

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1640 posts
  • Bnet Name:Cuban-communist
  • Bnet Realm:none

Posted 16 July 2010 - 08:49 AM

^Synergy implies there is an added bonus from the two things, the sum is greater than its parts. Since using 2 -armor spells together doesn't provide any additional benefits to either spell, it's not really synergy.

Ginsoo can be said to have more synergy with silencer since it gives him 1.6 damage per point of intelligence instead of 1. Or the old basher having synergy with high attackspeed heroes. Even those are pretty weak though.

Other than things like vacuum/magnataur coupled with another aoe stun/cleave I can't think of too much actual synergy in the game. It's just a hype word people like to throw around. Myself included.

Edited by Cuban-Communist, 16 July 2010 - 08:50 AM.


#35 pezzaperry

pezzaperry

    I'm Boxxy ya see?

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2511 posts
  • Bnet Name:Pezzaperry
  • Bnet Realm:Lordaeron

Posted 16 July 2010 - 09:07 AM

QUOTE(Cuban-Communist @ Jul 17 2010, 02:49 AM) View Post

^Synergy implies there is an added bonus from the two things, the sum is greater than its parts. Since using 2 -armor spells together doesn't provide any additional benefits to either spell, it's not really synergy.

Ginsoo can be said to have more synergy with silencer since it gives him 1.6 damage per point of intelligence instead of 1. Or the old basher having synergy with high attackspeed heroes. Even those are pretty weak though.

Other than things like vacuum/magnataur coupled with another aoe stun/cleave I can't think of too much actual synergy in the game. It's just a hype word people like to throw around. Myself included.


You're not making any sense, of course things have synergy. Getting dagger on Centaur has synergy no?

#36 Cuban-Communist

Cuban-Communist

    Custom member title

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1640 posts
  • Bnet Name:Cuban-communist
  • Bnet Realm:none

Posted 16 July 2010 - 09:22 AM

Indeed it does.

#37 RaKMaNiNoFF

RaKMaNiNoFF

    Enthusiast

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 584 posts
  • Bnet Name:RaKMaNiNoFF
  • Bnet Realm:Northrend

Posted 16 July 2010 - 09:56 AM

Cuban I understand exactly what the word synergy means and I exactly how armor works. Your defintion of a synergy is a very good one: 2 articles work together to produce an output greater than the sum of their parts. Simply put, my argument is that one minus-armor spell can be countered by RoB, 2 minus armor spells cannot be countered by 2 RoBs.

Mathematically, I'll try and explain it here except you can't put in functions or graphs.

Hit Points = H
EHP = E
Armor = A

So firstly E = H(1 + 0.06A)
IE, each point of armo gives 6% to your EHP.

So damage reduction is equal to 0.06A/(1 + 0.06A)
Let F(A) = 0.06A/(1 + 0.06A)
Sketch a graph of F(A) and you will see it curves downwards. Alternatively, differentiate twice to find F''(A), I don't believe this has been done before. Anyway, I've just found as expected on a piece of paper in front of me, that the second order derivative of damage reduction as a function of armor is always negative in the range A > 0.

In English what I'm saying is that damage reduction increases at a decreasing rate with respect to armor. So if you can pull an opponent down their armor curve, their damage reduction decreases at an increasing rate with further armor reduction.

Finally, to elaborate, I'll give everyone an example. I'll assume our enemy has 6 armor in total.

6 armor -  26% reduction
3 armor - 15% reduction
0 armor - 0 % reduction

The first -3 armor reduction spell takes 11% of his damage reduction. The second -3 armor reduction spell takes 15% of his damage reduction. This is why I say synergy.

Of course, I'm not taking into account the mechanics of how things work with minus armor. Could anyone inform me?




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users