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Poll: Mangix + Knight Davion = More Synergy!?

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#1 Ravernomus

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 05:45 AM

The only change that Pandaren Brewmaster has is his Breathe Fire, that was replaced with Thunder Clap. Personally i have nothing against it, but it was very nice when the 1st one could be mixed with Drunken Haze, causing the enemies get burned over some time! That's why i thought of why not return that synergy back (but not to Pandaren self)?! I mean let's bring the effect of Breathe of Fire (Knight Davion) + Drunken Haze (Pandaren brewmaster) back!

This topic is not a remake for those spells of those heroes, but merely a suggestion to create another effect if two different spells (from different heroes) are united.


QUOTE

IPB Image + IPB Image = IPB Image (as a buff)

So whenever Pandaren Brewmaster casts Drunken Haze on enemies and (while the buff is on) the Knight Davion casts his Fire Breathe, the affected enemies/enemy are going to be ignited and receive damage over time. I would like to point that after ignition the effect of Drunken Haze won't disappear, it will continue to go on until the spell wears itself off. The new effect of burning will keep going apart. So with another words Breathe of Fire + Drunken Haze will cause 2 buffs - one of Drunken Haze itself and the one of Burning Effect, each with own duration.

My suggestion for the duration of the new buff is the same as in WC3, namely 5 seconds, but well with increased damage per second (for instance 10/20/30/40 damage per second, but NUMBERS CAN BE TWEAKED). And to make it different from Ogre Magi's Ignite, i would propose to make that buff harming not only the target itself, but also to it's allies if they come close enough!!! So if some enemy is ignited by the combination of two spells, that enemy will receive damage/sec and harm it's allies if they are close enough.


BTW, the same thing might be done with other heroes. So what do you think about it?!

Edited by Ravernomus, 02 August 2008 - 01:33 AM.


#2 Dark Rogue

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 06:13 AM

This is a really good synergy to ignite the Drunken Haze, and, I pretty much use it 24/7 when playing with Mangix/Davion. So wait, you're saying you want the target to have both effects? Isn't it kinda' overpowered, I mean, this does deal a ton of damage.

#3 Torchic Maniac

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 06:26 AM

td.gif for concept

QUOTE
The only change that Pandaren Brewmaster has is his Breathe Fire, that was replaced with Thunder Clap. Personally i have nothing against it, but it was very nice when the 1st one could be mixed with Drunken Haze, causing the enemies get burned over some time! That's why i thought of why not return that synergy back (but not to Pandaren self)?! I mean let's bring the effect of Breathe of Fire (Knight Davion) + Drunken Haze (Pandaren brewmaster) back!


Think about it, man.  The skills are already good but is there any need to make certain hero combos make the skill stronger?  I don't think that it is necessary since 1) the heroes don't have much connection with each other other than those two ladder skills, 2) why should be it be limited to just Breathe Fire, it should apply to other fire skills, 3) it just forces combos in to make them stronger for no reason.  

QUOTE
BTW, the same thing might be done with other heroes.


Yeah, the only way you can convince me if you add more combos to the mix other than just one.  
But I think it adds unfair advantage to certain pairs compared to others.  I mean, there are so good spell combos that are not really forced in but still powerful.

#4 Ravernomus

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 07:49 AM

QUOTE(Dark Rogue @ Jul 29 2008, 09:13 AM) View Post

This is a really good synergy to ignite the Drunken Haze, and, I pretty much use it 24/7 when playing with Mangix/Davion. So wait, you're saying you want the target to have both effects? Isn't it kinda' overpowered, I mean, this does deal a ton of damage.


Ok, both effects at the same time might be too much, this can be changed without a problem.

#5 Ravernomus

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 08:15 AM

QUOTE(Torchic Maniac @ Jul 29 2008, 09:26 AM) View Post

td.gif for concept

QUOTE
The only change that Pandaren Brewmaster has is his Breathe Fire, that was replaced with Thunder Clap. Personally i have nothing against it, but it was very nice when the 1st one could be mixed with Drunken Haze, causing the enemies get burned over some time! That's why i thought of why not return that synergy back (but not to Pandaren self)?! I mean let's bring the effect of Breathe of Fire (Knight Davion) + Drunken Haze (Pandaren brewmaster) back!


Think about it, man.  The skills are already good but is there any need to make certain hero combos make the skill stronger?  I don't think that it is necessary since 1) the heroes don't have much connection with each other other than those two ladder skills, 2) why should be it be limited to just Breathe Fire, it should apply to other fire skills, 3) it just forces combos in to make them stronger for no reason.  

QUOTE
BTW, the same thing might be done with other heroes.


Yeah, the only way you can convince me if you add more combos to the mix other than just one.  
But I think it adds unfair advantage to certain pairs compared to others.  I mean, there are so good spell combos that are not really forced in but still powerful.


A) I didn't mean at all (but didn't mention it either) that this should be applied only on Fire Breathe + Drunken Haze (Drunken Haze might be combined with other burning spells). This is actually a (probably very) 1st try (in form of this topic) to do such thing. The fact that there is not much connection between the heroes is precisely the weakness of such combos (so that it won't become too IMBA). But from the other side this is also a very strong combo (true what you say Torchic), however i can show you couple of reasons why it would be very useful: I) It lessens the chance for overpowering heroes, especially in the late game II) Makes less chances to escape some certain difficult-to-catch heroes III) It might (probably) cause a better teamwork (but this is something optional).

B) Agree with you Torchic that such combos will make some certain pairs or even triplets of heroes stronger then average, but don't the items do the same thing with A SINGLE HERO ?! And ONCE AGAIN IT IS THE VERY 1ST TRY TO CREATE SUCH COMBOS, MAY BE THERE SHOULD BE CREATED A WHOLE TOPIC THAT IS GOING TO BE DEDICATED TO SUCH IDEAS. I don't want to see only this combination possible in DOTA, i would like to see more combos, but this requires some serious BRAINSTORMING and not only from one person!!!

#6 Ravernomus

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Posted 29 July 2008 - 10:56 AM

I have posted a Topic dedicated to this idea, you can find it here TOPIC

P.S. Sorry for double posting

#7 mastershan

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 12:15 AM

This combo is a bit too much since there are no cross-hero skills in dota yet. You could remake drunken haze in a way that gives dot when targetted by a spell though. For example: You cast drunken haze (lvl 4) on your enemy, Vengeful spirit comes along and throws an ice bolt and the enemy gets a debuff that gives him 10 (or 20, 50?) dmg per second for the duration of drunken haze.

Again, i dunno if it's really needed.

#8 Ravernomus

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 01:51 AM

QUOTE(mastershan @ Jul 30 2008, 03:15 AM) View Post

This combo is a bit too much since there are no cross-hero skills in dota yet. You could remake drunken haze in a way that gives dot when targetted by a spell though. For example: You cast drunken haze (lvl 4) on your enemy, Vengeful spirit comes along and throws an ice bolt and the enemy gets a debuff that gives him 10 (or 20, 50?) dmg per second for the duration of drunken haze.

Again, i dunno if it's really needed.


I suggest to create some combinations and then post them on the forum in order to discus them whether they good enough, only 1 combo is not necessary. But this is also a very 1st suggestion in DOTA, i believe. So we need 1st to create many of them and then to implement them...
- Here is the Topic dedicated to this idea, leave some feedback there, may be we can make something out of it BETWEEN HEROES COMBOS

Edited by Ravernomus, 30 July 2008 - 01:53 AM.


#9 GreatOnee

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 08:49 AM

Between hero combos are great thing, I really like it.It should be created in large scale.We can even have counter abilities, for example frost bite + breathe fire unfreezes the target, and the target is set loose sooner, or instantly, or the same thing with frost nova.On the other hand if the target is burning, then you could use frost nova or something to put it out.Or when the target is frozen then the DoT poison spells like shadowstrike could become frozen, because the target's vital abilities are frozen and the poison cannot spread as fast or at all.This could mean a whole new era of dota....

#10 Ravernomus

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 11:26 AM

QUOTE(GreatOnee @ Jul 30 2008, 11:49 AM) View Post

Between hero combos are great thing, I really like it.It should be created in large scale.We can even have counter abilities, for example frost bite + breathe fire unfreezes the target, and the target is set loose sooner, or instantly, or the same thing with frost nova.On the other hand if the target is burning, then you could use frost nova or something to put it out.Or when the target is frozen then the DoT poison spells like shadowstrike could become frozen, because the target's vital abilities are frozen and the poison cannot spread as fast or at all.This could mean a whole new era of dota....


You caught my thoughts GreatOnee, but this requires a whole discussion!!! However almost no one participates  verysad.gif

#11 GreatOnee

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 03:02 PM

You can't expect much of accepting changes from dota community, it's very hard to get them to change something completely new.Like your suggestion, of between hero combos, it would require very much work, and if turned on a large scale I'm thinking of, a real balancing nightmare, but I'd love to do it, i have ideas to make separate heroes have different types of attack, but this is arcade, and you can't expect everything to be done as realistically as possible....

#12 Dark Rogue

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Posted 30 July 2008 - 03:17 PM

It's good, but Drunken-Haze based spells would also be affected. Balanar's Crippling Fear is based on Drunken Haze, and Jakiro's Dual Breath is based of Breathe Fire. I mean, how can Fear and a Fire/Ice breath cause something to ignite? :S

#13 Ravernomus

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 01:32 AM

QUOTE(Dark Rogue @ Jul 30 2008, 06:17 PM) View Post

It's good, but Drunken-Haze based spells would also be affected. Balanar's Crippling Fear is based on Drunken Haze, and Jakiro's Dual Breath is based of Breathe Fire. I mean, how can Fear and a Fire/Ice breath cause something to ignite? :S


This is more technical part, what is merely a matter of time. I remember that someone had suggested "-OMG" mode, when almost all spells are randomed over different heroes (like Pudge's Meathook given to Void and so on). Such thing would require really LOTS OF WORK, but the suggestion was accepted despite the fact that it is so complicated. Now these combos, of what i suggest, are possible, and THE MAJOR IDEA BEHIND IT IS TO CREATE POSSIBILITY TO IMPROVE THE TEAMWORK (more balance thus), IF THERE IS SOME CERTAIN LACK (like tanks vs supporters), OR TO CREATE DISPELLING/REINFORCING ABILITIES BY COMBINING THE DIFFERENT SPELLS FROM DIFFERENT HEROES. Once again it is not only about Drunken Haze followed by Breathe of Fire, but about many other different spells. We need here a serious BRAINSTORMING for!!!!
- Think about it, many players speak of unbalanced game, that balance is never going to be reached (nor with my suggestion), but what we try to do is to get as close as possible to that "balance" (my suggestion is supposed to be such a step)!!! But the game turns really unbalanced out when there is a serious deviation in hero types between both groups (for example, the one group chooses only tanks and the other only supporters, in a later game to bring down one tank, the second team will have to use more then average of their efforts). For this reason making combos between heroes might be really helpful, it will also lead to more unbalancing but this chance shall become smaller, because it happens not often (mostly in pub) when teams try to choose stronger heroes then their opponents do! Nowadays, most players play mode such as -AR(em), -RD(em), -SD(em) and lesser -AP(em). The players get more advanced in DOTA and they look for more challenge, by giving the "faith" a chance to decide for them which hero they should play!

QUOTE(GreatOnee @ Jul 30 2008, 06:02 PM) View Post

You can't expect much of accepting changes from dota community, it's very hard to get them to change something completely new.Like your suggestion, of between hero combos, it would require very much work, and if turned on a large scale I'm thinking of, a real balancing nightmare, but I'd love to do it, i have ideas to make separate heroes have different types of attack, but this is arcade, and you can't expect everything to be done as realistically as possible....


Agree with that GreatOnee, however we must try, by giving arguments why it shall be implemented (also not forgetting the negative sides of it). A lot of work it will require, but as i have mentioned it above, someone had suggested -OMG mode and it was accepted (also by me  laugh.gif ). So why is this possibility of combos between heroes is not acceptable?!


ONCE AGAIN I'LL GIVE HERE A LINK TO THE DISCUSSION OF THIS PROBLEM IN ANOTHER TOPIC, PLEASE VISIT IT ANDLEAVE SOME COMMENTS DISCUSSION TOPIC

Edited by Ravernomus, 31 July 2008 - 01:34 AM.


#14 EternalCat

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 01:36 AM

Concept alone: td.gif

I'm sorry, but while I think it would be kinda cool, this makes no sense in DotA. Why reward a certain hero combination (or brewmaster + lina, anything) over the others? It's not an idea which is in DotA, and implementing it for everything (like Overgrowth and Gush working together, as a random bad example) would make balance so much harder.

Frankly, I'm happy with the generic synergies available at the moment - ie, Pugna works well with nukers. Making it any more specific makes life too confusing.


#15 Ravernomus

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 01:52 AM

QUOTE(EternalCat @ Jul 31 2008, 04:36 AM) View Post

Concept alone: td.gif

I'm sorry, but while I think it would be kinda cool, this makes no sense in DotA. Why reward a certain hero combination (or brewmaster + lina, anything) over the others? It's not an idea which is in DotA, and implementing it for everything (like Overgrowth and Gush working together, as a random bad example) would make balance so much harder.

Frankly, I'm happy with the generic synergies available at the moment - ie, Pugna works well with nukers. Making it any more specific makes life too confusing.



But listen, this is not about ALL heroes, but about certain heroes. Combining the abilities of all heroes would be too much. Where we can point is not only a greater NUKE (e.g. Drunken Haze + Fire Breathe), but also some kind of Dispelling possibilities, moreover AOE dispelling possibilities... Try to look from another hook....

#16 charcoal80

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 02:19 AM

I'm not sure it's easily codeable. Based on concept alone, it might open up new possibilities and balance issues. So i guess the cons overweight the pros.

#17 Torchic Maniac

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 04:32 AM

QUOTE
- Think about it, many players speak of unbalanced game, that balance is never going to be reached (nor with my suggestion), but what we try to do is to get as close as possible to that "balance" (my suggestion is supposed to be such a step)!!! But the game turns really unbalanced out when there is a serious deviation in hero types between both groups (for example, the one group chooses only tanks and the other only supporters, in a later game to bring down one tank, the second team will have to use more then average of their efforts). For this reason making combos between heroes might be really helpful, it will also lead to more unbalancing but this chance shall become smaller, because it happens not often (mostly in pub) when teams try to choose stronger heroes then their opponents do! Nowadays, most players play mode such as -AR(em), -RD(em), -SD(em) and lesser -AP(em). The players get more advanced in DOTA and they look for more challenge, by giving the "faith" a chance to decide for them which hero they should play!


Now, think about it.
Will these combos make the balance better or worse?  I will say "worse".  
The combos will have to be carefully chosen so certain combos can't destroy everyone in the game.  Just each in mind that some heroes are specialized to do something better than others.  

About the tankers vs. supporters thing, combos won't make it better.  It might make it worse.  Remember your example with Breathe Fire and Drunken Haze because those two are strength heroes and you just gave them a better nuke against low HP supporters.  In that case, some hero combination in general are better than others.

About game modes, you are right about people playing more "random", but you have to think about high level play.  They play -normal mode or -ap with -lm.  Leagues will abuse combos to the max and they use the combos more known than in pubs.  

I feel like this isn't needed.  DotA is already an advanced game.  It is hard for newer players to get into it (I know because I taught a friend awhile ago and it is hard to remember what some heroes can and cannot do).

Now, you can try making this into a game mode though..

#18 Ravernomus

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 11:47 AM

ok, why not, such thing as game mode would be nice too. Perhaps even better in order to avoid abusing, Shall i repost the topic?

#19 leon_m4her1

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 01:47 PM

Change thunder Clap??

Although my posts arent too much , but I am agood player in dota and i know its basics , When IceFrog improved Drunken Haze to 22% movementspeed reduction and on other side disabled blink when a hero is attacked, Panda now somehow can chase heroes for a bit longer , now if we added wc3 skill , it wont reduce -ms by 55% , coz this is overpowered , like the concept isnt acceptable, "iginte a unit with fire and reduce its -ms to 55%" so it will be reducing -ms for not more that 20% , coz think about it , when are being inginted by fire u run faster or slower ?

#20 sablesoul

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Posted 01 August 2008 - 07:42 PM

A forced team synergy is just bad. Maybe if panderan himself had fire breath i could understand but not a specific other hero like DK.

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