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#1 RaKMaNiNoFF

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 04:08 AM

Well seems to me here we have a hero who has a very flexible skillbuild and itembuild. Skill build is usually max stun with spray in between. However sometimes i get GG if I'm rolling the lane. Item build is a little more complicated and I need to hear some opinions.

Laning: Solo mid or dual/tri stun lane with CM, Venge, Lion

Items:
I tend to go RoB + Wand. Rob really helps, mana or no mana, he needs some armor/block.
Treads/Boots
Vanguard
Radiance
(BoT)
BKB

However if shit hits the fan well I'm looking at any combination of
SnY, Armlet, Vlads, AC, Mjollnir, Heart, Basher

Luxuries
Skadi, Heart, Butterfly

Situationals
Hoods, blink, guinsoo.

It's complicated. This hero is flexible and so flexible im never quite sure what my gank/farm ratio should be. Every time I pop through the jungle in the 50th second I drop a spray and kill a pair of doublestacked camps then move on.

Anyway, with no particular focus other than the hero himself, lets have some comments.

#2 pezzaperry

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 04:26 AM

Usually try to solo mid.

Skill build

- Stun
- Spray
- Spray
- GG
- Spray
- Ult
- Spray
- GG/Stun situational from here

Get a fast relic/radiance usually under 20mins depending on how you went in lane, play aggressive you can harrass well with an alchemist in lane providing they don't have a wand to give away your stun. Just go into fog to charge it up. Once you have treads/bottle/radiance you can go straight for an AC or possibly get a vitality and then go for the hyperstone, you might need some more HP to survive.

After AC I actually like SNY it's proc is massive when he has one of the highest AS in the game (hyper+ult), but it takes a lot of farm to get to that point anyway. Basher could be used but never tried it.

CS is just wow on alchemist when he has a radiance, combined with his goblin's greed it's amazing how much money he can cash up.

Attatched is a replay of me drafting an Alchemist in a clan war. Watch me play him and you might get an understanding of what I've said above.

Attached Files


Edited by pezzaperry, 13 July 2010 - 04:28 AM.


#3 Custom Kal

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 05:18 AM

I find alchemist's items are very based on the game.   He can play a very support role in many games and just get what ever your team needs.

I find though that urn works wonders on him in a dual lane early game because combined with many heroes you can get quite a few kills and heal up instantly both you and your ally to push the tower down.

I do usually rush Radiance just because he really is a natural tank minus the armor, something that you can get in many forms.  AC is one great option, Shivas if they have too many illusions, etc.  Late game a heart really does work wonders on him becuase he'll be walking around with 4k health in ult, and still be able to put out quite a bit of damage, and outside of battle he'll never have to return to the fountain for his life.

#4 Lord Zengar

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 06:09 AM

Armlet is awesome for him! And he can carry if the need is there.

#5 pezzaperry

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 02:19 AM

Meh I don't really like Armlet on him at all tbh, it's just not a good item. Needs a buff.

#6 RaKMaNiNoFF

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 02:49 AM

pezzaperry i think you say good things most of the time but I can't help but think that everything you sway is merely swayed by popular and credible opinion rather than founded on your own empirical experience. RoB became very fashionable in the last half-year, and you've started saying you like it, vanguard has fluctuated like you have. You were dead against hotd on drow and now you are dead for it.

I've always found it hard to tell how much I like armlet. I mean I get it about half the time on the vague candidates for it, and I've never been too sure. So rather than tell me armlet is not a good item just because it's nowhere near as chique as it was a year ago, where playdota tryhards would let you know they get it on void, and everyone here would drop it down along with the exclamation ''cheap DPS'', tell me WHY you don't like it and what alternatives there are to a cheap midgame item with a buildup easier than vanguard.

See I'm not insulting you. I'm interested to hear you reasons WHY it's a bad item. Perhaps alchemist has so much capacity to farm that he doesn't need items with easy build ups and can skip it compared to say SK, who's a better natural DPSer, but can't rice/flash as well as Alchemist.

#7 pezzaperry

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 03:28 AM

I'm not going to bother to explain WHY I don't like it, the fact is that I've used it several times on Alchemist due to numeral posts on the forums advocating it, and I find that it is very outclassed by other items. Just personal experience, I don't want to look further into a deeper meaning, in my opinion it just needs a buff.

Have you watched the replay?

Edit, I just re-read your post and noticed that you think I'm basing this on popular credible competitive dota. I suppose my opinion does match up with the popular dota, but i have definitely experienced Armlet myself. As said above... It's kind of harsh that you would say I have no experience and just follow competitive, when it is not nearly the case. I play 1500% more than I watch.

Edited by pezzaperry, 14 July 2010 - 03:30 AM.


#8 Galnafisken

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 05:13 AM

His stun is fucking annoying and to good, to low cd for it's spammable cost.

#9 Cuban-Communist

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 07:02 AM

Ya I tried rushing soul despite people saying he doesn't need mana after level 6 (a bullshit statement). It works well. Lets you spam away.

I personally enjoy armlet, but it does make him really REALLY dependent on his ulti since that is when it is most effective. Instead of being a good hero with good damage outside ulti and very good in ulti (radiance rush) you become a mediocre hero with a stun outside ulti and unkillable in ulti (armlet). Depends on what you want.

Sange Yasha is amazing on him, I've been saying it for a while, the base 60 movespeed from ulti stacks well with yasha and you maim like a motherfucker.

#10 Custom Kal

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 10:30 AM

^I've found RoB and Urn combined with ulti should be enough for alchy, which is why I don't look at soul ring much for him.  I've never really tried it, but I just don't think its needed.

Still don't like SnY cause it doesn't bring enough to the table.  Also I find it isn't that hard for Alchy to save up for items since he gets them really fast once he has goblins greed, and early game phase + urn + RoB should suffice all things he needs early, which is why I usually go for radiance.

#11 Nothill

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 10:44 AM

I played a (pub) game not long ago where Sent laned WR + Techies against a solo Alchy (his DS partner dropped off early). He went Soul Ring/Boots/ROH and spammed acid to his heart's content. Nothing could dislodge him from the lane, and ganks failed miserably (he's humongous with his ulti). Needless to say, relic came fast for him, by which time it was too late to stop him from carrying his team.

I can also attest that SnY is freaky on him, from earlier personal experience. I synergizes with everything he's got.

Edited by Nothill, 14 July 2010 - 10:47 AM.


#12 D3m0nd4ys

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 10:51 AM

as the OP said, he has flexible builds, but the support build is way better for him. Cheap mekansm plus vladimir is great for pushes mid games. The skill build for him depends on you team strat: if you have pushers max acid first, if you have ganker oriented team max stun, goblin greed after maxing your other skills.

The reason i dont build ALchy as a carry , is that despite his massive atack speed , health and regen, he is not that great, he needs way too many atack items leaving him with no armor at mid game. Thats the reason why some people dont like armlet on him, because is not that effective on him, armlet is more effective on heroes like balanar, sacred warrior and naix.

#13 fruitlord

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 12:44 PM

I rush soul ring and do the stun/acid x2/gg/acid/ult/acid build as well.  Although so far 100% of the time I max stun and don't put anymore into gg after 7.

You can farm your lane effectively while keeping both enemies far back or severely harassed.  If my lane enemies aren't attempting harass much I will start the spam at level 3 and attain 6 quickly for the ult regen.

#14 pezzaperry

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 01:15 PM

QUOTE(Cuban-Communist @ Jul 15 2010, 01:02 AM) View Post

Ya I tried rushing soul despite people saying he doesn't need mana after level 6 (a bullshit statement). It works well. Lets you spam away.

I personally enjoy armlet, but it does make him really REALLY dependent on his ulti since that is when it is most effective. Instead of being a good hero with good damage outside ulti and very good in ulti (radiance rush) you become a mediocre hero with a stun outside ulti and unkillable in ulti (armlet). Depends on what you want.

Sange Yasha is amazing on him, I've been saying it for a while, the base 60 movespeed from ulti stacks well with yasha and you maim like a motherfucker.


Bottle is good if you're soloing mid though, and replaces the need for soul ring. Otherwise in side lanes it can be pretty decent.

#15 RaKMaNiNoFF

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 01:37 PM

Can people comment on vanguard? I get it on him almost all games. Would I be wrong in thinking EHomes AAA is probably the most notorious Alch player?

From what I can see he's a constant ROB, Treads, Vanguard/Radiance (order depending on ease). I've copied him mainly, any other notable alchemist players?

Thanks again for the comments everyone, and didn't mean to imply you are spineless or thoughtless pezzaperry.

#16 Galnafisken

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 01:57 PM

QUOTE(RaKMaNiNoFF @ Jul 14 2010, 01:37 PM) View Post

Can people comment on vanguard? I get it on him almost all games. Would I be wrong in thinking EHomes AAA is probably the most notorious Alch player?

From what I can see he's a constant ROB, Treads, Vanguard/Radiance (order depending on ease). I've copied him mainly, any other notable alchemist players?

Thanks again for the comments everyone, and didn't mean to imply you are spineless or thoughtless pezzaperry.

I always go HoD or Vanguard on him, how can you not do it if your going for a radi after? With just treads or even less then that, phase boots, you wont be the hardest target to take down, even with your ulti up.

I love building AC and Satanic after that, AC for the obvious reason, the armor increase, the IAS, the addional -armor aura on targets, sinergy well with his ulti, and Satanic for the dps increase, survability, and it's use is just so fucking great on him, they gonna try nuke you down then when your at 20-30% you turn on Satanic and just gain your HP back up, the difference in him and other melees who NEED to rely on BKB to be able to dps and survive, he doesn't, he IS be a fucking pain in the ass to kill, especially with Treads, Vanguard, Satanic, AC, you will be able to dps ALOT when they run out of disables, going by that you will be able to dps shit with your Satanic up, plus the insane movement speed increase.

#17 pezzaperry

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 03:07 PM

QUOTE(Galnafisken @ Jul 15 2010, 07:57 AM) View Post

I always go HoD or Vanguard on him, how can you not do it if your going for a radi after? With just treads or even less then that, phase boots, you wont be the hardest target to take down, even with your ulti up.

I love building AC and Satanic after that, AC for the obvious reason, the armor increase, the IAS, the addional -armor aura on targets, sinergy well with his ulti, and Satanic for the dps increase, survability, and it's use is just so fucking great on him, they gonna try nuke you down then when your at 20-30% you turn on Satanic and just gain your HP back up, the difference in him and other melees who NEED to rely on BKB to be able to dps and survive, he doesn't, he IS be a fucking pain in the ass to kill, especially with Treads, Vanguard, Satanic, AC, you will be able to dps ALOT when they run out of disables, going by that you will be able to dps shit with your Satanic up, plus the insane movement speed increase.


Radiance with Vanguard is definitely doable. Look at my replay, I'm pretty sure I dodge Vanguard for radiance straight up. Satanic seems bad because it just doesn't really help what he needs though... I would way rather Radi/AC/SnY, you just don't die with that much armour and that much HP in your ultimate form.

Vanguard is a good item yeah but I think it is overused on him by a lot of competitive players, I get kind of annoyed when an Alchemist has just gotten freefarm in mid and decides to go Vanguard+Hood rather than something that will actually help your farm and help the team massively (radiance).

#18 Nothill

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 04:04 PM

I agree with you pezzaperry. Vanguard on Alchy feels like Vanguardmania. There are few with as much survivability when he has his ulti on.

Edited by Nothill, 14 July 2010 - 04:05 PM.


#19 pezzaperry

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 04:40 PM

I don't think I'll bother ever submitting a replay again though... I draft an alchemist just for this thread and play him and no1 even watches.

#20 OnlyBuilt4CubanLinx

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 04:44 PM

dont worry man, you got your point across and i think most of us here will agree so its like w/e.




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