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Demnok Lannik, the Warlock


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#21 mynameisthis

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 12:35 PM

I found that sometimes in team battles, its very effective to sit back and upheaval to cover ur allies... The AOE is very large, and it makes it generally very difficult for melees to get into the battle after a while. The problem is that this requires a black king bar pretty quickly if you dont wanna get owned in two seconds. Disrupting the general flow of the game is the basic intention of this...

#22 Dky

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Posted 29 August 2008 - 12:46 PM

refresher for "pubs" = autofail.. it's outstanding when you are pushing whatever is the skill of your opponents... beside that very crap point, gj

#23 Beast_Pete

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Posted 30 August 2008 - 07:11 AM

QUOTE(merovinge2 @ Aug 29 2008, 03:10 PM) View Post
In my worthless opinion you can Stats at 2-4, and still get bonds by 12, which is fairly sufficient, while providing the minor edge in laning, which is WLs cake anyway.


QUOTE(AdiNecrotongue @ Aug 29 2008, 03:49 PM) View Post
Nice guide, but I prefer stats over Bonds early, atleast till level eight.


QUOTE(scele @ Aug 29 2008, 05:21 PM) View Post
would really prefer stats...let lvl up bonds after 11.


QUOTE(moopheus @ Aug 29 2008, 05:21 PM) View Post
I agree that word+stats is just too strong in the beginning.  You won't be using fatal bonds in the lane so unless you are doing some fast push+big aoe strat getting bonds at lvl 12-14 or so seems quite fine.


In a solo lane it's all okay. But when you are paired up with someone else, then you level slower. By the time you have level2 infernal, you should have level4 bonds, because all or most of your allies will have level2 ulties as well, and the destruction you can do together is amazing.

QUOTE(ElementUser @ Aug 29 2008, 03:20 PM) View Post
Zzzzzz it's Upheaval not Upheavel. I guess beer hinders Beast_Pete's ability to spell properly tongue.gif.

Oh and the featured guides are always nice ^^.  Wonder when a certain IMBA QoP Guide will be featured...


Haha, too much beer and I pronounce the word differently. tongue.gif

QUOTE(Fratyris @ Aug 29 2008, 03:26 PM) View Post
Nice guide and you have a good taste of beer.

When will you travel back and which route will you take? I think my livingplace should be on quite your way tongue.gif


Where exactly do you live? I go to Wacken every year btw, that's where I'm buying Franziskaner and import to my country later on. tongue.gif

QUOTE(Dakonblackblade @ Aug 29 2008, 03:39 PM) View Post
Erdinger Weisse Fan

and for everyday Fishcer.


Hmm, gotta taste them. Damn, my country is lacking good beers!

QUOTE(scele @ Aug 29 2008, 05:21 PM) View Post
upheaval really have good potentials, but in any decent game, it can be easily countered by a stunner..
so might as well get some magic immunity, a repel would be good(since i don't tink using BKB is a suitable item for warlock)..though your tanker would benefit more from repel. any suggestions.?


QUOTE(mynameisthis @ Aug 29 2008, 10:35 PM) View Post
I found that sometimes in team battles, its very effective to sit back and upheaval to cover ur allies... The AOE is very large, and it makes it generally very difficult for melees to get into the battle after a while. The problem is that this requires a black king bar pretty quickly if you dont wanna get owned in two seconds. Disrupting the general flow of the game is the basic intention of this...


In teamfights avatar is good anyway. The question is: does it worth sacrificing your physical attacks when you could just hit and help your team more? Does the AoE slow help more? It is something I cannot tell yet, it would need a lot of testing, dozens of games and mainly in high-level (and it's obviously about what items you have, which heroes are on your team and on the opponent's side).

QUOTE(moopheus @ Aug 29 2008, 05:21 PM) View Post
Refresher is pretty underrated I feel (although guinsoo is better due to being much stronger in ganks/skirmishes and still strong in teamfights).  If they have no hero suitable for diffusal, it is by far the strongest option in teamfights for him since not only do 2x infernals own, but you get a double fatal bonds which can be absolutely disgusting damage if your team has enough aoe.  If your team has a lich or vs to be buying wards and you soloed as warlock+do well later, going guinsoos->refresher seems byfar the strongest option (though I'd rather necro->guinsoos if you go book first).  2x ranged aoe diables+2x ranged hex, all from an imbalanced distance away? Sign me up!
I also really don't see much value to BoT on warlock unless it's a super long game or something where everyone must have travel, because later on he becomes completely teamfight oriented.  I guess having a hex at a gank is always worth it though, but generally I prefer to make him stronger at teamfights (i,e guinsoos->refresh)

I do agree that upheaval could be used more than it is, perhaps just to let your infernal actually beat up people more (it mostly just chases people around anyway since you can't really tank it).  In ganks/small skirmishes his regular attack is probably more important though.

As for solo vs dual warlock, I think this is because of spectre's ascendancy into a top tier hero.  Warlock is by far the best babysitter in the lane and spectre just needs that oomph early on to get going.  Or because teams are choosing heroes that absolutely must solo (Fiend, Silencer, and QoP come to mind).  Not really many babysittable heroes are good anymore, with TB being stronger in the jungle (teams don't do this recently and he suddenly gets underfarmed and way behind from too tough of a lane: bad idea!).  I don't really like dual lane warlock outside of babysitting or something really strong like viper+warlock, since you put him halfway in between getting a fast guinsoos with his great farming and letting another hero get set up early while buying wards+mek.


I agree with your thought about why laned Warlock is more popular nowdays. You need other heroes to level up faster, while Warlock is there to help a weaker laner. And later he becomes quite strong in team fights with Infernal and Bonds, so he remains quite helpful throughout the whole game.

My experiences were that dual infernals weren't as efficient as getting two other items (necro-> guinsoo or guinsoo -> shiva for example). But that's my experience, of course it might be different for everyone else. I don't diss the idea of getting refresher as second big item, it's good.

QUOTE(broodstar258 @ Aug 29 2008, 08:30 PM) View Post
purge has like 10~12 second cooldown no?

refresher doesnt counter diffusal, mostly the only time you go diffusal to counter warlock is when he's going refresher


But that's just enough time to decide the outcome of a battle. And if the diffusal-holder dies meanwhile, then the second infernal will remain on the ground. If you can chain-disable that hero, then both will remain on the field.

QUOTE(EndJ)Storm( @ Aug 29 2008, 09:45 PM) View Post
You forgot the uber ganking dagon5 strat smile.gif

IHL only!


Hehe, I guess I did. tongue.gif

QUOTE(Dky @ Aug 29 2008, 10:46 PM) View Post
refresher for "pubs" = autofail.. it's outstanding when you are pushing whatever is the skill of your opponents... beside that very crap point, gj


Yes, but you can push in pubs as well. wink.gif

#24 nekdolan

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Posted 30 August 2008 - 11:09 AM

Didn't think anyone would start with boots except me... btw Shiva or Skadi cost a lot so I usually get two levels of stats (instead of early bonds) and 3 null talismans. Also 3 null talismans and void stone from preservance gives nice regen...

#25 abcdefg1391

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Posted 30 August 2008 - 11:27 AM

Meh, do u really need bonds that early? Even using them on creeps then having all of them die doesn't do a full 300 to the target......
I'd say it's worth it to take the stats early and have bonds maxed by 13 or 14 instead.

#26 nekdolan

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Posted 30 August 2008 - 12:09 PM

One more thing... when I played support warlock back in 6.48 it was like 99% harass 1% deny and 0% heal other. I always used shadow word onmyself so that I can keep harassing the opponent. I start with boots for better mobility or 3 mantles for the mana and 9 damage. No tangoos...maybe flask (healing salve), because shadow word has a long CD and you might need to heal your team-mate or yourself fast, but never tangoos. If you can wait for tangoos why not wait for shadow word? Also it can be used on the infernal. 400 hp!

#27 banjkan3

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Posted 30 August 2008 - 01:08 PM

QUOTE
If you can wait for tangoos why not wait for shadow word? Also it can be used on the infernal. 400 hp!


If you don't go tangoes then a good player will completely annihilate you when your word is down.  (read: vigoss QoP).  You can't rely on word alone, you will need at least 1 set of tangoes in most cases.

#28 Nubcaekz

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Posted 30 August 2008 - 11:45 PM

Meh I like getting Attributes/ Shadow Word first than Fatal Bonds. Lets me spam Shadow Word and have my damage and HP increased. If you fatal bonds in early game, the damage output is very sucky.

#29 Fratyris

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 04:48 AM

QUOTE(Beast_Pete @ Aug 30 2008, 05:11 PM) View Post
Where exactly do you live? I go to Wacken every year btw, that's where I'm buying Franziskaner and import to my country later on. tongue.gif

I live in Franconia, the place with the highest brewery-rate in the world. If that's on your way back home and you're interested I guess we can meet and you could stay here for a weekend or so.

#30 nekdolan

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 09:29 AM

QUOTE(banjkan3 @ Aug 30 2008, 11:08 PM) View Post

If you don't go tangoes then a good player will completely annihilate you when your word is down.  (read: vigoss QoP).  You can't rely on word alone, you will need at least 1 set of tangoes in most cases.


As long as you don't meet Vigoss you don't need tangoos that much. 7 sec regen is good, but hardly a must. I usually take tangoos from the guy next to me, if I really need it. Support has its cost you know  biggrin.gif

Btw. I don't know how to play against Vigoss, but aginst Qop first you need to pass the creeps (immideatley after they meet) and second you need to harass out of creep agro. Use SW onyourself, if necessary. Since you have longer range, better damage and more armor and SW, he will blink away ( since most Qop players start with blink ) after a little fight. After that he will eat tangoos (since QoP players get tangoos), but 7 hp/sec regen won't heal fast enough to get back in action. So you need to make him stay out of xp range while you are still in it. Repeat this and make sure he doesn't reach level 2 before you reach 3. After that you will have the advantage. If QoP reaches level 3 before you, then you are screwed be it Vigoss or not...

#31 Chammer

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 09:44 AM

Good one. I can see where you're coming from with Bonds > Attri, but it's really mostly for Dual lanes only. In a solo lane the Attribute bonus just comes in far more handy, as it helps you against harass/ganks (HP and Mana for Shadow Word, although RoB should cover that) while also slightly increasing your ability to harass/lasthit/deny.

Start build should be RoB + a pack of Tangoes (I agree with bonk there, early Word alone won't be enough in most cases).

edit: Franconia huh. Would be less confusing to just call it Bavaria D: tongue.gif

Edited by Chammer, 31 August 2008 - 09:47 AM.


#32 Against the Ropes

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 10:58 AM

QUOTE(Beast_Pete @ Aug 30 2008, 08:41 PM) View Post

In a solo lane it's all okay. But when you are paired up with someone else, then you level slower. By the time you have level2 infernal, you should have level4 bonds, because all or most of your allies will have level2 ulties as well, and the destruction you can do together is amazing.

Take Bonds at level 8. Perfect.

#33 Beast_Pete

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 11:03 AM

Nürnberg and Würzburg? Is it that area?

I'm gonna add the stats-build too, but it won't be the promoted skill build. It is a commonly used build and it's okay for solo, but I still prefer the bonds build even when I'm not laned up with anyone.

#34 Chammer

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 11:08 AM

Nürnberg and Würzburg lie in Franconia, yeah.

#35 Da-Reaper

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 11:48 AM

13th HGC much? otherwise it's a very good guide. And don't most people go word-stats? But it's allways good to see new ideas

p.s (off topic) how do you code that hidden box?

#36 Battery-

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 01:30 PM

QUOTE(Da-Reaper @ Aug 31 2008, 08:48 PM) View Post

13th HGC much? otherwise it's a very good guide. And don't most people go word-stats? But it's allways good to see new ideas

p.s (off topic) how do you code that hidden box?


CODE
[hidden][/hidden]


Beast_Pete here btw, on clanmate's PC.

#37 Fratyris

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 07:22 PM

QUOTE(Beast_Pete @ Aug 31 2008, 09:03 PM) View Post

Nürnberg and Würzburg? Is it that area?

Exactly. I live in Bayreuth (known for Wagner) and Bamberg (they got ~10 breweries) is the "capital of beer". Interested? tongue.gif

#38 abcdefg1391

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 09:41 PM

Meh, even in a dual lane, i can't see myself using bonds.

The bad thing about bonds is that they aren't very synergistic with themselves, if you know what I mean. I'll elaborate. I've reviewed some of the mathcraft on them, stating that they "double" aoe damage and whatnot. COMPLETE LIE.

The damage from bonds don't amplify themselves, which has been one of the things that people don't seem to take account for. Say you bond 4 creeps and a hero together, the hero runs away, the creeps die. The calculation has always been: gee, 4 creeps, each 600 hp, and 15% of damage is shared, so 4*.15*600 means the hero takes 360 damage. Well, not quite. The first creep disperses 600*.15 = 90 damage. But the second, having only 510 now, can only disperse 76.5, the third, damaged by the first two, disperses 65, the last, only 55 damage. So, the hero only takes 287 damage. Meh. Another issue is that when heroes get nuked or attacked normally, they only disperse damage taken after armor reduction. Bond a CM and a Lina then magic missile the Lina. She only disperses 225*.15 = 34 damage only. Or bond them both and shockwave them and they each give 34 to the other. Still not that impressive. Bond 5 heroes together and shockwave them all (how the hell did u land that anyways?) and each only recieves an additional 136 damage. (hardly "doubling", unless you're mathematically challenged.)

IMO earlygame and laning phase i'd want the extra 2 branches per bonds level instead.

#39 alpheusladesa

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Posted 31 August 2008 - 10:12 PM

Wow.....I would've to say that this is the best guide i've even seen yet.....Awesome layout and detailed skill, item build and explaination.....

Well done

#40 Stavros13

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Posted 01 September 2008 - 04:03 AM

Nice guide Beast!

Just a question: What about rushing Shiva's?




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