Jump to content


* * * * - 7 votes

Yunero, the Juggernaut


  • Please log in to reply
134 replies to this topic

#21 Chameleon12

Chameleon12

    Enthusiast

  • Forum Crew
  • 1185 posts
  • Bnet Name:Nooblex
  • Bnet Realm:Azeroth

Posted 08 October 2007 - 09:52 PM

Thanks guys.

I know it's a bit wall-of-text-like. I really wanted to get some screenshots for special jungling techniques and some of the Blade Fury tricks, but I actually stopped playing DOTA around the time I finished writing this and started the formatting etc. I can't get screenshots cause I don't have the game with me at college =(

If anyone would be cool enough to take a few screenshots that would be amazing. I guess PM me or post here if anyone's willing to take them and convert them to jpg. The thing I really wanted to add is the spots where you can see creep camps and the runes from far away, cause you can't describle that with text. Could be done in single player in around 10 mins or so.

Anyway, thanks again for the support guys.

#22 Duckcowhybrid

Duckcowhybrid

    The Every Night Delight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2606 posts
  • Bnet Name:Duckcowhybrid
  • Bnet Realm:Lordaeron

Posted 09 October 2007 - 03:50 AM

Due to my suspension I haven't been able to post in this guide but although this is late I would like to say one thing. PRO. Best guide EVARRRRRRR

I am serious. I loved this guide so much I actually went and played a game. Needless to say, I owned. It was a pub, but hey, it was fun and I did go 11-1. I pulled off most of the tricks in this guide really well. Curiass is an awesome item on Jugg.

If you want the replay (I'm sure you don't because it's a stupid pub and I suck) PM me.

#23 Ha_Undead_Ha

Ha_Undead_Ha

    Novice

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 71 posts
  • Bnet Name:Ha_Undead_Ha
  • Bnet Realm:Azeroth

Posted 09 October 2007 - 04:01 AM

awesome guide will try it out , lots of info and detail of what builds to go for against what hero's

#24 Chameleon12

Chameleon12

    Enthusiast

  • Forum Crew
  • 1185 posts
  • Bnet Name:Nooblex
  • Bnet Realm:Azeroth

Posted 09 October 2007 - 07:49 AM

QUOTE(Duckcowhybrid @ Oct 9 2007, 06:50 AM) View Post

Due to my suspension I haven't been able to post in this guide but although this is late I would like to say one thing. PRO. Best guide EVARRRRRRR

I am serious. I loved this guide so much I actually went and played a game. Needless to say, I owned. It was a pub, but hey, it was fun and I did go 11-1. I pulled off most of the tricks in this guide really well. Curiass is an awesome item on Jugg.

If you want the replay (I'm sure you don't because it's a stupid pub and I suck) PM me.


Actually I love watching jug reps lol. Good ones are so hard to find. I'll watch it when I go home if you send it to me.

Thanks for the t-up (what happened to your drow guide btw?)

QUOTE(Ha_Undead_Ha @ Oct 9 2007, 07:01 AM) View Post

awesome guide will try it out , lots of info and detail of what builds to go for against what hero's


Thanks =)


#25 StaRLighT[VeNuS]

StaRLighT[VeNuS]

    1+1=2

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1587 posts
  • Bnet Name:Miragle[B]
  • Bnet Realm:Lordaeron

Posted 09 October 2007 - 08:20 AM

Pretty sure it is a sexy/solid guide since it is written by chameleon12 and is 3 pages long. Every1 loves jugg. First fat404, next tucker. now chameleon. biggrin.gif Gl getting premiumed for this and Es guide.

I think you should add in more pics, espacially to your second post. I havent seen the replays where you jungle, but i think you sould still provide more info on jungling with jugg. BKB if too many disablers? Although i do not swear by bfly, i still think that bfly is better than circuss. 60 damage should be better than deducting 5 armor. First item is deso, which is good. Getting deso/circuss makes him too reliant on omnislash imo. Nevertheless, it is still an imba guide. THese are just merely my opinions biggrin.gif

Edited by queenofdidas, 09 October 2007 - 09:14 AM.


#26 Chameleon12

Chameleon12

    Enthusiast

  • Forum Crew
  • 1185 posts
  • Bnet Name:Nooblex
  • Bnet Realm:Azeroth

Posted 09 October 2007 - 10:17 AM

QUOTE(queenofdidas @ Oct 9 2007, 11:20 AM) View Post

Pretty sure it is a sexy/solid guide since it is written by chameleon12 and is 3 pages long. Every1 loves jugg. First fat404, next tucker. now chameleon. biggrin.gif Gl getting premiumed for this and Es guide.


=)

QUOTE
I think you should add in more pics, espacially to your second post. I havent seen the replays where you jungle, but i think you sould still provide more info on jungling with jugg.
  

Yeah I wanted to add pics, but if you read my last post you'll see why I didn't. Replays are usually the easiest way to learn something though. Probably take about 5 minute to watch the jungling part.

QUOTE
BKB if too many disablers?


Personally I don't like it on Jug cause you can get around quite a bit with Blade Fury, and 10 seconds is so little time. I tend to just get Radiance/Heart or something similar vs teams like that. If you drop healing ward and use Blade Fury well, you can usually eat most of the disables without dying.

As always though, bkb works vs disablers.

QUOTE
Although i do not swear by bfly, i still think that bfly is better than circuss. 60 damage should be better than deducting 5 armor. First item is deso, which is good. Getting deso/circuss makes him too reliant on omnislash imo. Nevertheless, it is still an imba guide. THese are just merely my opinions biggrin.gif


It's close enough that it can go either way, especially with the Desolator build. Cuirass just has a better build up and helps your team out, so I think it's slightly better assuming there's no one with Bash and no one on your team is getting cuirass.

Edited by Chameleon12, 09 October 2007 - 10:18 AM.


#27 Duckcowhybrid

Duckcowhybrid

    The Every Night Delight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2606 posts
  • Bnet Name:Duckcowhybrid
  • Bnet Realm:Lordaeron

Posted 09 October 2007 - 03:35 PM

QUOTE(Chameleon12 @ Oct 10 2007, 01:49 AM) View Post

Actually I love watching jug reps lol. Good ones are so hard to find. I'll watch it when I go home if you send it to me.

Thanks for the t-up (what happened to your drow guide btw?)


I had my Drow guide closed, I need to update it with a fresh new build and stuff. I think I need a new topic for that. Also I have other things to worry about (Exams, Heretic's Tiny guide, etc.)

Here's the replay.

Good moments are when I get a triple Kill off Bladefury/Omnislash near the enemies raxes. Also when Dark Seer Vaccums me and Axe back so that Omnislash hits Axe fully. And when I pull Axe out of the way of creep camps before omnislashing.

It's basically Jungle Jugger early, with my core being Bottle/3XWraith/BoT/Rad/Curiass.

[attachmentid=52413]

Attached Files



#28 YaNK_FaN

YaNK_FaN

    I love the Broncos

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1462 posts
  • Interests:Sex. Drugs. Alcohol.
  • Bnet Name:Random Things on Garena
  • Bnet Realm:none

Posted 09 October 2007 - 04:16 PM

very nice guide.  great info, i love the build though right now i prefer 4 wraith bands and just throw one to get next item.  really impressed by detail and length.

#29 Tucker

Tucker

    Official Final Fantasy Geek!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2080 posts
  • Interests:Stuff
  • Bnet Name:FreeLanceTucker
  • Bnet Realm:Lordaeron
  • Potential:R

Posted 09 October 2007 - 04:17 PM

Yeah sure it's comprehensive, but there's nothing new that hasnt already been covered in fat's, joon's or my guide.

Still funny to see you arguing for Cuirass now after reading some old quotes.

#30 kalorful

kalorful

    Iron Fist of Justice > Noobs

  • Moderators
  • 2041 posts
  • Bnet Name:Kalorful
  • Bnet Realm:Lordaeron

Posted 09 October 2007 - 08:36 PM

Was that an em or non em replay?
IMO butterfly is the item to go on Jugg, yes true that AC amplifies Omnislash damage heaps, but your crits don't look as good smile.gif


#31 Chameleon12

Chameleon12

    Enthusiast

  • Forum Crew
  • 1185 posts
  • Bnet Name:Nooblex
  • Bnet Realm:Azeroth

Posted 09 October 2007 - 09:57 PM

QUOTE(YaNK_FaN @ Oct 9 2007, 07:16 PM) View Post

very nice guide.  great info, i love the build though right now i prefer 4 wraith bands and just throw one to get next item.  really impressed by detail and length.


Never been a fan of filling your inventory completely with small items. Even if you're going radiance (probably not the best idea with wraiths), you're gonna have to sell the wraith back in 10-15 minutes. If you're getting deso, could be 5 mins or less to get a hammer. Much better to fill the last slot with a circlet or branch IMO.

Thanks for the t-up though.

QUOTE(Tucker @ Oct 9 2007, 07:17 PM) View Post

Yeah sure it's comprehensive, but there's nothing new that hasnt already been covered in fat's, joon's or my guide.


None of the guides suggest wraith bands, none of them cover mechanics of the skills, and none of them really compare the different item choices on Juggernaut. Fat's guide says Sny -> Butterfly has 0 cons and doesn't explain why it's good. Your guide defends your build, but doesn't really address others, and Joon seems to have abbandoned his guide as soon as Bottle became popular. Someone is helping me with screenshots now, so there will be a lot more about jungling too.

QUOTE
Still funny to see you arguing for Cuirass now after reading some old quotes.


Glad I could make you giggle.

QUOTE(kalorful @ Oct 9 2007, 11:36 PM) View Post

Was that an em or non em replay?
IMO butterfly is the item to go on Jugg, yes true that AC amplifies Omnislash damage heaps, but your crits don't look as good smile.gif


As I keep saying, it can go either way. Both are great second items on Juggernaut - the main point of me writing a page comparing them was to show that.


#32 Duckcowhybrid

Duckcowhybrid

    The Every Night Delight

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2606 posts
  • Bnet Name:Duckcowhybrid
  • Bnet Realm:Lordaeron

Posted 09 October 2007 - 11:12 PM

QUOTE(kalorful @ Oct 10 2007, 02:36 PM) View Post

Was that an em or non em replay?
IMO butterfly is the item to go on Jugg, yes true that AC amplifies Omnislash damage heaps, but your crits don't look as good smile.gif


Non-em. I got all that stuff in about 50-55 min. Shows how fast Jugger can farm. Jugger is one of the best Jungle candidates because once you reach level 6 if anyone comes looking for you by themselves, jsut pull them out of the way of creeps and Omnislash. I think I do that in that replay on Axe.  Butter has a really poor build up, and it's not until you finish the piece that it's actually a a good item. Curiass however, basically helps you quite a bit along the way, making it much better.

#33 fat404

fat404

    Enthusiast

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 309 posts
  • Bnet Name:fat404
  • Bnet Realm:none

Posted 10 October 2007 - 10:12 AM

Tell me what do you think about Power Treads? I would really like to know what you think about it since you didn't mention it much in your guide.

I'm starting to think that Power Treads is better than Boots of Travel since Blink Dagger is the new trend. You can't really outchase your enemy, instead you would be relying really heavily on your teammates to stun/disable. Besides, teamwork is better than personal skill.

Maybe the old conventional build won't work anymore. Just look at Power Tread and MoM on faceless. Why are people getting Wraith Bands when Bracer are so much better than Bands early game? This is because DPS hero needs attack speed to be deadly.

I've been trying out various builds lately and I found that Desolator is the item to go after getting Power Treads. With the recent coding changes on Omnislash, it actually order Juggernaut to attack if his attack speed is high enough, thus complimenting Power Treads even more. Moreover, Omnislash tends to end much faster than the old one, you really need attack speed even more.

#34 asad_godlike

asad_godlike

    Novice

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 49 posts
  • Bnet Name:Diablo
  • Bnet Realm:none

Posted 10 October 2007 - 12:14 PM

Yeah desolator is the way to go. A definate kill if omnisplash is applied on a single hero. This isnt the case with SNY.

#35 Chameleon12

Chameleon12

    Enthusiast

  • Forum Crew
  • 1185 posts
  • Bnet Name:Nooblex
  • Bnet Realm:Azeroth

Posted 10 October 2007 - 01:14 PM

QUOTE
Tell me what do you think about Power Treads? I would really like to know what you think about it since you didn't mention it much in your guide.

I'm starting to think that Power Treads is better than Boots of Travel since Blink Dagger is the new trend. You can't really outchase your enemy, instead you would be relying really heavily on your teammates to stun/disable. Besides, teamwork is better than personal skill.

Maybe the old conventional build won't work anymore. Just look at Power Tread and MoM on faceless. Why are people getting Wraith Bands when Bracer are so much better than Bands early game? This is because DPS hero needs attack speed to be deadly.

I've been trying out various builds lately and I found that Desolator is the item to go after getting Power Treads. With the recent coding changes on Omnislash, it actually order Juggernaut to attack if his attack speed is high enough, thus complimenting Power Treads even more. Moreover, Omnislash tends to end much faster than the old one, you really need attack speed even more.


I think Treads are a lot more viable than they used to be, as seems to be the case on most heroes, but I still favor BoTs. First of all, with Treads, you HAVE to carry a TP throughout the game because the Blade Fury/TP combo is so ridiculously good. Also, if you're carrying, by mid game you want to be able to farm several lanes quickly, which you can't really do with Treads. Sorta like how Razor and Syllabear (after rad)need BoTs to farm. There's always chasing with Blade Fury, but Jug with treads can chase most heroes with Boots if you're good.

About Omnislash, it was recoded twice. The first time made it go faster, the second time it was set to .4 seconds and Juggernaut was coded to attack between. This did 3 things:

1. Made things like Main and lightning trigger during Omni
2. Made the spell do a little more damage on average
3. Made the spell more predictable.

From what I can tell from the graph, it's now possible to get an exact number of slashes every time (or almost) with a certain amount of attack speed. If treads hit a particular break point for early game, they'd have more potential.

Like on most heroes, I could see treads being useful if the game was going really fast, but I think they're better on heroes like Void and Silencer than on Juggernaut because those heroes actually rely on their physcal attack during early and mid game. For Juggernaut, treads are really just for Omnislash, since you won't rely on your physical attack until you get your first big damage item.

Edited by Chameleon12, 10 October 2007 - 01:16 PM.


#36 kalorful

kalorful

    Iron Fist of Justice > Noobs

  • Moderators
  • 2041 posts
  • Bnet Name:Kalorful
  • Bnet Realm:Lordaeron

Posted 10 October 2007 - 05:42 PM

how often do you buy a stout shield when jungling? Is it necessary? Does the effect justify the cost?
when bladefury is cooling down, are normal attacks adequate for jungling creeps at low levels?

I haven't jungled much with Jugg, as
1) Haven't faced many anal lanes like NA+Lesh
2) haven't got the hang of it yet.

Whats a good benchmark for jungling jugg? 16 min relic?

#37 Chameleon12

Chameleon12

    Enthusiast

  • Forum Crew
  • 1185 posts
  • Bnet Name:Nooblex
  • Bnet Realm:Azeroth

Posted 10 October 2007 - 09:18 PM

QUOTE(kalorful @ Oct 10 2007, 08:42 PM) View Post

how often do you buy a stout shield when jungling? Is it necessary? Does the effect justify the cost?
when bladefury is cooling down, are normal attacks adequate for jungling creeps at low levels?


I never buy a stout shield. Jug will never really get stuck with hard creeps if you pull double spawns, especially if you use both sides of the map. By the time you could actually get a stout shield, the time when it's really useful is already over since you need to get a bottle as your first item. Getting a stout shield would mean another trip too, unless you have a chicken and your allies don't need it much.

Jug's normal attack is pretty weak. It's only useful for finishing off creeps that you almost killed with Blade Fury (wolves, for example, will have like 25 HP each after a lvl 2 blade fury), and if you get a DD, you can use it to take out golems, or take out centaurs (if you use blade fury first).

QUOTE

Whats a good benchmark for jungling jugg? 16 min relic?


Jungling Juggernaut isn't really about farming a big item quickly. You have to gank a lot for your allies. If you have no other carry, getting radiance after bottle can be a good idea (I think I do that in the first or second game) but you still really need to focus on getting kills early. If you watch the replays, I usually have 4-5 kills pretty early on.


#38 kalorful

kalorful

    Iron Fist of Justice > Noobs

  • Moderators
  • 2041 posts
  • Bnet Name:Kalorful
  • Bnet Realm:Lordaeron

Posted 10 October 2007 - 10:30 PM

Ok so basically I only kill neutral creeps when Fury is cooling down, the rest of the time I spend trying to pull creeps right?

Also, are you sure Meat Hook doesn't deal damage to spinning Juggernaut? I don't see a plus next to meat hook in your spells which go through bladefury

#39 Chameleon12

Chameleon12

    Enthusiast

  • Forum Crew
  • 1185 posts
  • Bnet Name:Nooblex
  • Bnet Realm:Azeroth

Posted 11 October 2007 - 01:26 AM

Yeah, hook does magical damage.

I think jungling would be a lot more clear if you watched one or two of the replays. First 15 mins takes 5 mins on 3x.

#40 Jeydra

Jeydra

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 12 posts
  • Bnet Name:LeynaAstar
  • Bnet Realm:none

Posted 11 October 2007 - 04:19 AM

Your guide is horrible because you never let me know it existed closedeyes.gif Seriously, if fortune had not brought me to DA today I would happily have encouraged my brother to go Battlefury again with Juggernaut smile.gif

Yours is a very lengthy guide, and while I think much of it is useful some of it does ramble on. Solo vs. a dual lane for example is a bit...redundant, I think you could've merged it into one section? Also, long lists of spells that can be dodged are rather un-helpful too in my opinion. I think you can easily make this guide more concise and thus easier to use.

And finally a typo:

QUOTE
Game 3

Game Type: Clan Match
Strategy: Double lane
Items: Wraith Bands/Desolator
Score: 13-4

Taking a break from jungling, I lane top with CM against NA/Leshrac – one of the strongest lanes possible in 6.43b. I almost die at the start and CM gives up first blood soon after, but fortunately we’re able to pick things up. I go 4-0 in the lane before dying, then pick up a few more kills soon after. Meanwhile, their Terrorblade out-farms our Bristleback mid and we’re forced to push before he gets too strong. Their Lina has to leave near the end, but it doesn’t change the outcome of the game too much.


The 'clan' in the title's also coloured Red. It's also the only typo I found (and I read most of the guide), wonder how many times you proof-read this? rolleyes.gif




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users