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[Item] Hood of Defiance


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Poll: What do ya think?

Add a recipe?

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#1 Tucker

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 01:36 AM

Ok for starters, Im not going to change anything about the item. I've seen like 1354312482347 threads in the last 2 days about "Why does it lose the armor from helm?" etcetc and stuff like that.

The answer is pretty much, "for balance reasons" .... so why not just change the recipe? I can appreciate Ice + Dev's trying to include helm into more recipes, but Doing so JUST for the sake of it and then losing bonus' for balance reasons is a bit drab.

ADDING ARMOUR TO THIS ITEM WONT WORK. IT WILL MAKE IT TOO MUCH LIKE AEGIS WAS, WHICH WILL NOT WORK. THERES A REASON AEGIS WAS REMOVED IN PLACE FOR A NEW MAGIC RESISTANCE ITEM AND AN AMOUR ITEM. COMBINING THE TWO IS WHAT MADE AEGIS IMBA IN THE FIRST PLACE. PLEASE STOP USING THAT ARGUEMENT AS IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN AND HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY REMAKE SUGGESTION.




So heres the suggestion:


OLD:

QUOTE
Hood of Defiance  2350  OR  2475

Planeswalker Cloak (650)
Helm of Iron Will (950)
2 RoRs (750)   OR    RoH (875)

30% Spell Reduc.
+8 HP Regen





NEW:

QUOTE
Hood of Defiance  2400

Planeswalker Cloak (650)
1 RoR (375)  
1 RoH (875)
Recipe Scroll (500)

30% Spell Reduc.
+8 HP Regen



This just makes more sense I think. Removing helm and adding a recipe.... Helm is only used in the final item for the extra regen, and loses the armor, so why use it? Just use both types of rings, and save helm for a different recipe.

Price of recipe can change to affect balance if needed.

Ok thats all! vote away.


Sorry about double posting, Screwed up the Poll in the 1st one.

Edited by Tucker, 02 November 2007 - 09:52 PM.


#2 heffalump75

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 01:39 AM

yeah good idea, TUP!!

#3 MinisterInBlack

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 01:41 AM

I said it before but here it is again tongue.gif

I like it - it's right around the middle of the cost for the original one, and all of the items make sense, with the recipe cost justifying the upgrade to the items.

I can't say I care too much about buying the helm in the first place, but hey, I guess if you can change it to make a little more sense to the people complaining, why not?

#4 Titou

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 01:45 AM

Don't really see the improvement, if you manage to do Defiance Hood, what's the matter of changing items to make it for the same result ? And i prefer having items that brings bonus while i wait for being able to buy the complete item, even if i lose these bonuses with the final item, instead of a recipe that doesn't give me anything !

This would only be a remake for people complaining . . . but hell ! Is there any reason to complain ? Isn't it better to have useful items while you play, awaiting for a better item to be made, instead of several little items that brings little bonuses, and a recipe that only serves to make them altogether ?

Null Vote

Edited by Titou, 13 March 2007 - 01:47 AM.


#5 Tucker

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 01:55 AM

QUOTE(Titou @ Mar 13 2007, 07:45 PM) View Post

Don't really see the improvement, if you manage to do Defiance Hood, what's the matter of changing items to make it for the same result ? And i prefer having items that brings bonus while i wait for being able to buy the complete item, even if i lose these bonuses with the final item, instead of a recipe that doesn't give me anything !

This would only be a remake for people complaining . . . but hell ! Is there any reason to complain ? Isn't it better to have useful items while you play, awaiting for a better item to be made, instead of several little items that brings little bonuses, and a recipe that only serves to make them altogether ?

Null Vote



The recipe adds +15% magic resistance and +2 hp regen per second over the original items...............

So whats ur arguement? :/

#6 Titou

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 02:03 AM

You don't have understood me . . . i was speaking about the fact of having items in your inventory before being able to complete the entire Item . . .

Well, let's be more explicit :

I begin a game with about 800 gold.
Due to enemies' heroes, i want to get as fast as i can a Hood of Defiance.
Actually : 3 choices are offered to me :
-Regeneration (2 RoR . . . better than 1 RoH if you plan to buy HoD immediately)
-Magical Resistance (Planeswalker's)
-Physical Armor + Regen (HoIW)

After that, i will have a new choice in my items' choice, by buying one of the two remaining before the other, due to the situation !

With your suggestion, the possibilities are reduced to 2 :
-Regeneration
OR
-Magical Resistance

Early game, armor is important for being able to stay in a lane and make Xp without having to go back to fountain, and so, you can begin a game with RP Regen & Physical Armor bonuses, that are very important thanks to the Helm !
But as game goes on, your hero's armor grows up, and the +5 bonus becomes less and less important, contrary to the Magic Resistance, that keeps ALL ITS POWER, and becomes even more poserful as Spell Damages grow up !

Did you get my point of view ? I prefer having more early game choices, and keeping the Helm in the requirements for Hood of Defiance !

#7 aurasprw

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 02:09 AM

I like encouraging the use of Helm.

The current way, it can be built in any order. Your way, it will always finish with a regen item.

#8 Tucker

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 02:21 AM

QUOTE(Titou @ Mar 13 2007, 08:03 PM) View Post

You don't have understood me . . . i was speaking about the fact of having items in your inventory before being able to complete the entire Item . . .

Well, let's be more explicit :

I begin a game with about 800 gold.
Due to enemies' heroes, i want to get as fast as i can a Hood of Defiance.
Actually : 3 choices are offered to me :
-Regeneration (2 RoR . . . better than 1 RoH if you plan to buy HoD immediately)
-Magical Resistance (Planeswalker's)
-Physical Armor + Regen (HoIW)

After that, i will have a new choice in my items' choice, by buying one of the two remaining before the other, due to the situation !

With your suggestion, the possibilities are reduced to 2 :
-Regeneration
OR
-Magical Resistance

Early game, armor is important for being able to stay in a lane and make Xp without having to go back to fountain, and so, you can begin a game with RP Regen & Physical Armor bonuses, that are very important thanks to the Helm !
But as game goes on, your hero's armor grows up, and the +5 bonus becomes less and less important, contrary to the Magic Resistance, that keeps ALL ITS POWER, and becomes even more poserful as Spell Damages grow up !

Did you get my point of view ? I prefer having more early game choices, and keeping the Helm in the requirements for Hood of Defiance !



Thats all well and good..... but as soon as you finish the item, you lose the armor of the item. So in essence, you're paying 950 gold for 4 hp/s regen, which can be gotten from the rings.

The point here is not the items use/benefit BEFORE the item is made, Its the use the items have IN the item's effects AFTER it's made.

Helm is Superfluous, Redundant and Useless in the effects of the FINAL item.



QUOTE(aurasprw @ Mar 13 2007, 08:09 PM) View Post

I like encouraging the use of Helm.

The current way, it can be built in any order. Your way, it will always finish with a regen item.



Im all for using Helm in more recipe's aswell. But the way it's used in this recipe is redundant.

Edited by Tucker, 13 March 2007 - 02:22 AM.


#9 TheHeretic

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 04:46 AM

Agree. Having the Helm is stupid.

#10 Titou

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 04:51 AM

QUOTE("Tucker")
Thats all well and good..... but as soon as you finish the item, you lose the armor of the item. So in essence, you're paying 950 gold for 4 hp/s regen, which can be gotten from the rings.

The point here is not the items use/benefit BEFORE the item is made, Its the use the items have IN the item's effects AFTER it's made.

Helm is Superfluous, Redundant and Useless in the effects of the FINAL item.


The point of an item is composed of ALL its parts . . . its usefulness, its price, its components, its balanced bonuses . . .

If you want Physical Armor, so don't do Hood of Defiance ! Get a BladeMail, an Assault Cuirass . . .
I think the fact that Helm is used in Hood of Defiance Item is, as stated before, that it's very poorly used in other items, whereas it provides interesting bonuses !

Instead of changing this item that, for me, perfectly fits its role, why no create a new one, using the Helm, and conserving (and even improving) all its bonuses ?
I don't think the Dev'Mods have implemented this item without having truly think about it, and if it has been done as it is, there is a reason ! (i don't say they can't have made any error, but such a change between Components and Final Item can't be just a random fact !)

I perfectly understand your argument, but don't agree at 100% with it, in that the Hood is not a Physical Defence, but a Magical one ! The fact that it makes a 30% Spell Resistance with 8Hp/sec Regen is sufficient to explain why the Physical Armor has been removed . . .

#11 Torchic Maniac

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 05:01 AM

To be honest, it really doesn't matter with me either way.
On one side, the Hood doesn't have the armor benefits of the Helm and it is worthless to add that item in the recipe.
On the another side, the Helm needs to be in more recipes and add armor to the hood might be too powerful for an early game item.

However, I won't null my vote. I'll T-up this.  It is still a good change and I won't affect the game much (if any).

Edited by Torchic Maniac, 13 March 2007 - 05:02 AM.


#12 Tucker

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 06:16 AM

QUOTE(Titou @ Mar 13 2007, 10:51 PM) View Post

The point of an item is composed of ALL its parts . . . its usefulness, its price, its components, its balanced bonuses . . .

If you want Physical Armor, so don't do Hood of Defiance ! Get a BladeMail, an Assault Cuirass . . .
I think the fact that Helm is used in Hood of Defiance Item is, as stated before, that it's very poorly used in other items, whereas it provides interesting bonuses !

Instead of changing this item that, for me, perfectly fits its role, why no create a new one, using the Helm, and conserving (and even improving) all its bonuses ?
I don't think the Dev'Mods have implemented this item without having truly think about it, and if it has been done as it is, there is a reason ! (i don't say they can't have made any error, but such a change between Components and Final Item can't be just a random fact !)

I perfectly understand your argument, but don't agree at 100% with it, in that the Hood is not a Physical Defence, but a Magical one ! The fact that it makes a 30% Spell Resistance with 8Hp/sec Regen is sufficient to explain why the Physical Armor has been removed . . .



Ummm....... your arguement doesnt make any sense. Ur saying that "the Hood is not a Physical Defence, but a Magical one !" but you argue that you dont want helm removed from the recipe? Contradiction.


"If you want Physical Armor, so don't do Hood of Defiance ! Get a BladeMail, an Assault Cuirass . . ."

Exactly.... so why is an item which provides MAGIC resistance, have an armor item in it's recipe? Only to totally negate all the bonus' from said item once the recipe is formed.


"Instead of changing this item that, for me, perfectly fits its role, why no create a new one, using the Helm, and conserving (and even improving) all its bonuses ?"

I dont want a new item.... This item is perfectly fine, except that it has a redundant item in its recipe that should be removed.


" The fact that it makes a 30% Spell Resistance with 8Hp/sec Regen is sufficient to explain why the Physical Armor has been removed"

Yeah ok, so why keep helm in the recipe when you dont ultise it's effects?? Your trying to make it sound really complicated and complex when really its not. Remove helm, use both rings, add a small recipe and the item will make sense without having to lose bonus' from redundant items used to make the item.



@ torchic: Adding the armor from helm to this hood would make it exactly like 5.84 Aegis, only more like a "baby Aegis" with less of everything. So yeah, I dont think that's an option. Just remove helm all together and use it in other recipes.

Edited by Tucker, 13 March 2007 - 06:36 AM.


#13 Jimson

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 06:29 AM

Absolute T-UP from me. Actually I had the same idea.
There is no point in putting armor in its components and have that not carry over in its completion. It doesn't make sense.

PS. You have a biased poll.

Edited by Jimson, 13 March 2007 - 06:29 AM.


#14 sttomato

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 06:35 AM

i hate the helm... why is it there?! t-up.

#15 Titou

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 07:06 AM

So i guess the helm is here in a way of realistic making process of item . . . as only swords are used in Divine Rapier (why Claymore instead of Mithril Hammer, that deals more damage ? Because it's a hammer) . . . you make a hood without any Head's item . . . so the Helm is here for that !

And as i stated before, but this, you don't seem having read it :

QUOTE("Titou")
But as game goes on, your hero's armor grows up, and the +5 bonus becomes less and less important, contrary to the Magic Resistance, that keeps ALL ITS POWER, and becomes even more poserful as Spell Damages grow up !


HERE is the utility of the Helm, even in this Magical Defence's Item ! If you get the Helm early game, you will be provided a consequent Armor bonus, that will disappear, but then it's up to you to make the Hood at a propitious time of the game !

#16 slivers7

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 07:26 AM

Well, I often wondered why making Satanic has you losing the +10 dmg from HotD. Actually, I still don't understand why that's necessary, since you spend quite a bit more on the recipe. Anyways...

Well, after scanning through the page, I have to say, having a temporary bonus is better than having NO bonus at all. Would you rather have the Helm as an ingredient with a bit of armor, or a cheaper recipe that does absolutely nothing?

Null vote from me! smile.gif

#17 Titou

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 07:48 AM

Thank you Sliver for having fully understood me ! Maybe am i not really clear, but that's what i say, i prefer a temporary bonus than NO bonus at all (to keep your own words) !

#18 china_white

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 08:02 AM

If both are going to cost the same, with the same effects, why change it? The only advantage to this is that you can get the entire thing with small amounts of money. The advantage to the current ingredients allows for some extra survivability if a user desides to buy a helm while farming for money to buy the extra pieces... so changing the recipe items to what you have now is in a sense nerfing the item...

But I see where you're coming from. Null vote.

#19 hellxtremedawg

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 08:07 AM

T-up, I've been wondering for a while where the armor from the helm went in my finished hood hahahahahhaha

#20 waz mac

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Posted 13 March 2007 - 08:32 AM

Helm of ironwill is the most pointless item ever. Just remove it from dota permanently instead of finding ways to buff it and make it more useful.

Helm of Dominator: Uses HoIW but loses the +3 hp regen.
Hood of Defiance: Uses HoIW but loses the +5 armour.

Why not just use RoH/Chainmail and add a recipe?

TU




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