Jump to content


[REPOSTED][STR-SENT] Pendragon, the Phoenix


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
21 replies to this topic

Poll: Pendragon, the IMBA Phoenix (16 member(s) have cast votes)

Ready for Potential Judging?

You cannot see the results of the poll until you have voted. Please login and cast your vote to see the results of this poll.
Vote

#1 Thoth-

Thoth-

    Imbalanced Judge

  • Validating
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2945 posts
  • Interests:RAWR.
  • Bnet Name:Thoth-
  • Bnet Realm:Kalimdor
  • Potential:R

Posted 06 May 2009 - 04:05 AM

__________________________________________________

CHANGE LOG

May 6, 2009
• Posted the Hero Suggestion.
• Reworded some skills.
• Lessened max damage on Bide so that it can be used more often rather than just holding all the pain and grudge and anguish inside for a KS skill.
• Lowered MS from 300 to 290 just because.
• Lowered AoE of Flare Pulse from 600 to 500.
• Also lowered AoE of Phoenix Fire from 600 to 500 so it is the same with Flare Pulse.

May 7, 2009
• Increased HP of egg to 500 from 300 but added Armor values (0 - Unarmored).
• Made egg magic-immune meaning it has to be physically attacked to be destroyed.
• Added Phoenix Fire damage to normal Heroes, Heroes with Hood of Defiance, and Magina with Spell Shield and Hood of Defiance, all thanks to notoriousdrb.
• Added a 0.1 mini-stun to Bide so TP wouldn't own him like it does Bloodseeker.

__________________________________________________

INTRODUCTION

Summon Pendragon, the Phoenix

IPB Image
(in-game)

Story


Pendragon was summoned by a Blood Mage as powerful as he is unknown, but found deep in the crevices of a large volcano. It serves the Sentinel for mysterious reasons, with a softness in its warm heart for humans. When in battle, it can breathe a wall of pure fire, stopping enemies in their tracks. It takes pain and anguish for the humans, often retaliating with considerable force. Its feathers burn with great intensity, hurting itself in the process, but it doesn't give up, as it continues to live to serve its master and its kin, who are now its new family.


IPB Image
(in-game)

Strength: 26 + 3.1 (Primary)
Agility: 20 + 2.1
Intelligence: 16 + 1.4

Learns Flame Wall, Bide, Flare Pulse and Phoenix Fire

Attack range of 300 (Ranged)
Movement speed of 290

__________________________________________________

HERO REASON

I was inspired when I saw a Phoenix model Hero suggestion, so I decided to create one for my own, with my own twist, and trying not to stay so close to what people expect from a Phoenix.

Alright, here's an overview. He's a STR Hero, which is unexpected. But he also needs the HP to tank, and I'm fed up with INTs, really. He is also ranged, but only up to 300 units, which is quite short.

He only has one disable: it's a slow and sort of harder to aim than most skills. He also has a tanking skill, which doesn't enhance his ability to take damage, just take advantage of it. His third skill also does this in a different way, which all work by themselves so no biggie.

Of course, he has a rebirth skill, but only because it goes so well with the concept!

I'm using its original head icon just because it looks awesome.

__________________________________________________

HERO INFORMATION

Affiliation: Sentinel
Role: AoE Damage Dealing through Tanking
Theme: Phoenix

Pendragon, Phoenix

__________________________________________________

HERO ABILITIES

IPB Image
(imported)

Flame Wall

Breathes out a wall of pure flames in front of him, making it very difficult to traverse and dealing damage over time. Lasts 5 seconds.

Level 1 - 300 unit length, 10 dps, 20% slow.
Level 2 - 400 unit length, 20 dps, 40% slow.
Level 3 - 500 unit length, 30 dps, 60% slow.
Level 4 - 600 unit length, 40 dps, 80% slow.

This is meant to block escape routes or stop pushes, much like Fissure. But unlike it, though, it doesn't completely stop the enemy, but slow them HEAVILY making it seem like a wall. For the most part, it doesn't affect allies.

You don't target it, so you had better face the right direction, ya nub. It scales this way so there is a need to level it to increase usefulness.

By the way, it slows movement speed only.


Ability Type: Active Instant
Range: 300/400/500/600 length, 200 thickness
Damage Type: Magical
Animation: Ice Path except fiery!

Cooldown: 25 seconds
Mana Cost: 80/100/120/140 mana

__________________________________________________

IPB Image
(imported)

Bide

The Phoenix can take tremendous amounts of pain. Pendragon stores how much health it lost and can unleash its fury on a 300 AoE around its target. Mini-stuns the AoE for 0.1 seconds.

Level 1 - Up to 100 damage.
Level 2 - Up to 200 damage.
Level 3 - Up to 300 damage.
Level 4 - Up to 400 damage.

This does not absorb damage, it just counts it.

Everytime Pendragon is damaged, the amount of HP he lost is counted and stored. If he uses this skill, the amount stored is used to deal damage to the target and the 300 AoE around it.

Simple enough? This can be used normally to take advantage of enemy creeps and towers. This does not prevent damage from being taken, it just measures and stores it.

And this also happily works with his Ultimate, more on that later.


Ability Type: Active Unit Targeting
Range: 600
Damage Type: Magical
Animation: Sunstrike animation around a target or something more devastating

Cooldown: 10 seconds
Mana Cost: 75 mana

__________________________________________________

IPB Image
(imported)

Flare Pulse

Everytime Pendragon loses 100 health, a heat wave is released dealing damage to a 500 AoE around him. Can pulse once every second.

Level 1 - 25 damage.
Level 2 - 50 damage.
Level 3 - 75 damage.
Level 4 - 100 damage.

This skill can be used a standalone when taking advantage of enemy creeps or towers to last hit that 1 HP Hero you can't reach with your pitiful range.

However, this can be coupled with Bide to deal massive AoE damage. As well as his Ultimate, of course.


Ability Type: Passive
Damage Type: Magical
Animation: Lighter animation of Shiva's Guard but in a fiery way

Cooldown: N/A
Mana Cost: N/A

__________________________________________________

IPB Image
(imported)

Phoenix Fury

Once activated, it cannot be turned off. Pendragon goes into a fury that releases intense amounts of fire, damaging itself and every enemy within 500 AoE per second. If the Phoenix dies only when this skill was activated, he is transformed into a vulnerable 500 HP magic-immune egg with 0 Armor. After a few seconds, he lives again with full health.

Level 1 - 75 damage per second, 5 second egg time.
Level 2 - 125 damage per second, 4 second egg time.
Level 3 - 175 damage per second, 3 second egg time.

This skill is a suicide skill based off the original ladder Phoenix, and keep in mind it only revives him if this skill was activated. It has a decent cooldown so it cannot be used to escape death all the time. If you are killed while you are an egg, you don't revive.

It is an IMBA Immolation which damages you and every enemy nearby. It deals a considerable amount of damage, so you had better be prepared to tank it.

This also gives damage that you can use with Bide, and activates Flare Pulse.


Ability Type: Active Instant
Animation: Big Immolation around Pendragon

Cooldown: 120/110/100 seconds
Mana Cost: 150 mana

Here are some numbers using a Level 3 Phoenix Fire with 175 damage per second to gauge the damage you will be dealing to enemy Heroes within seconds. Thanks to notoriousdrb for these numbers.

Normal Hero with 25% spell resistance

1st: 206
2nd: 412
3rd: 618
4th: 824
5th: 1030
6th: 1236

Hero with Hood of Defiance with around 48% spell resistance

1st: 143
2nd: 286
3rd: 429
4th: 572
5th: 715
6th: 858

Anti-Mage with Hood of Defiance and Level 4 Spell Shield with around 68% spell resistance

1st: 88
2nd: 176
3rd: 264
4th: 352
5th: 440
6th: 528

IPB Image

Edited by Thoth-, 07 May 2009 - 06:25 PM.


#2 Saguine

Saguine

    Assassin

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 901 posts
  • Bnet Name:Saguine
  • Bnet Realm:none

Posted 06 May 2009 - 05:09 AM

I REALLY LIKE THIS GUY.

Like, really really.

His first skill is interesting, maybe a bit too much like Ice Wall, but I'll let it go.

2nd is great. I love the concept, simple but unused in dota (maybe Blademail/Dispersion). I can see a great combo with this guy (Blademail + Bide). And wasnt that a Pokemon skill? tongue.gif

3 and 4 are also good.

I like the synergy!!

Go you!!

#3 notoriousdrb

notoriousdrb

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Bnet Name:notoriousdoctorb
  • Bnet Realm:Azeroth

Posted 06 May 2009 - 05:11 AM

Well I really like the idea of a pure immolate character, and I don't like to judge on the numbers, so i'll give a T-up and i'm going to calculate the damage/sec after magic resist just to see what it would be like. Be back with results in a few!

I'm wondering if it would be possible to keep his ult up permanently with stacked regen..hood/heart/blood with charges/etc, that should not be a possibility, but then again that relies on the numbers and is not the point!(just curiosity)

#4 Basskip

Basskip

    Novice

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 64 posts
  • Bnet Name:Basskip
  • Bnet Realm:none

Posted 06 May 2009 - 05:11 AM

Let's see, first of all, I love the concept the whole massive-blademail thing really fits and has been taken on quite well.

But for a tank, I don't see why I want to attack him, even with his ultimate. Sure you may get rid of some of the immolation damage by attacking him, but suddenly he can start letting off his equivalent of BB's quills very quickly and blast you around with Bide.

Damage on the second and third skills: Before or after reductions? If before, I don't see how he can possibly lose a 1v1 fight if both skills are maxed, he's going to go for STR items and the majority of the damage you do to him is coming straight back at you.

Oh, also, Flare Pulse. If you are dealt 200 damage in a single nuke, do you release two pulses, or is there a small internal cooldown? Even though it's not largely relevant, the mechanics would really change the skill around.

Phoenix Fury, great, gives him something to do even when he's not being attacked directly in a teamfight by charging up his second and third skills, just make sure you don't mess up the timing, or hit the wrong hotkey by accident when walking around. But then again, for all his massive AoE damage power-housing he's still going to need allies to stop his enemies just running the hell away from him.

#5 Thoth-

Thoth-

    Imbalanced Judge

  • Validating
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2945 posts
  • Interests:RAWR.
  • Bnet Name:Thoth-
  • Bnet Realm:Kalimdor
  • Potential:R

Posted 06 May 2009 - 05:11 AM

QUOTE(Saguine @ May 6 2009, 09:09 PM) View Post

I REALLY LIKE THIS GUY.

Like, really really.

His first skill is interesting, maybe a bit too much like Ice Wall, but I'll let it go.

2nd is great. I love the concept, simple but unused in dota (maybe Blademail/Dispersion). I can see a great combo with this guy (Blademail + Bide). And wasnt that a Pokemon skill? tongue.gif

3 and 4 are also good.

I like the synergy!!

Go you!!

Let's face it, he needed an out-of-the-line disable that could make him work better, even if unrelated. Sort of like Skeleton King, really.

And yes, the name was based on a Pokémon skill.

QUOTE(notoriousdrb @ May 6 2009, 09:11 PM) View Post

Well I really like the idea of a pure immolate character, and I don't like to judge on the numbers, so i'll give a T-up and i'm going to calculate the damage/sec after magic resist just to see what it would be like. Be back with results in a few!

I'm wondering if it would be possible to keep his ult up permanently with stacked regen..hood/heart/blood with charges/etc, that should not be a possibility, but then again that relies on the numbers and is not the point!(just curiosity)

Thanks for calculating for me. tup.gif

No, it is direct HP removal which isn't affected by magic resistance and is NOT like Pudge's Rot. There is no possible way to keep it permanently through normal game means. You will die, face it. LOL. Just die in a safe place.

Yes the enemy takes less damage than you (because of reduction) since you get a second chance at life anyway and you have other AoE bombs.
QUOTE(Basskip @ May 6 2009, 09:11 PM) View Post

Let's see, first of all, I love the concept the whole massive-blademail thing really fits and has been taken on quite well.

But for a tank, I don't see why I want to attack him, even with his ultimate. Sure you may get rid of some of the immolation damage by attacking him, but suddenly he can start letting off his equivalent of BB's quills very quickly and blast you around with Bide.

Damage on the second and third skills: Before or after reductions? If before, I don't see how he can possibly lose a 1v1 fight if both skills are maxed, he's going to go for STR items and the majority of the damage you do to him is coming straight back at you.

Oh, also, Flare Pulse. If you are dealt 200 damage in a single nuke, do you release two pulses, or is there a small internal cooldown? Even though it's not largely relevant, the mechanics would really change the skill around.

Phoenix Fury, great, gives him something to do even when he's not being attacked directly in a teamfight by charging up his second and third skills, just make sure you don't mess up the timing, or hit the wrong hotkey by accident when walking around. But then again, for all his massive AoE damage power-housing he's still going to need allies to stop his enemies just running the hell away from him.

I spent quite my entire time on the mall a while ago just thinking about his concept.

Damage counted by Bide and Flare Pulse is from HP removal and therefore AFTER reduction. Maybe I should reword it better.

And Flare Pulse can only proc once every second. I forgot to add it, my bad.

And yes, he needs allied help, which is why he isn't so IMBA. Just get him disabled so he shits himself and destroy the egg. Easily countered.

Edited by Thoth-, 06 May 2009 - 05:27 AM.


#6 XchaosfireX

XchaosfireX

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 5 posts
  • Bnet Name:NIL
  • Bnet Realm:none

Posted 06 May 2009 - 05:31 AM

haha why issit that you come with the nicest synergies haha

ok anyway all the skills are superb, just repeating the abovementioned concern about flame pulse, does it activate twice upon dealt 200 dmg in one hit, perhaps there shld b a cd like germinate attack

and for its ulti, does it mean that he definitely will die e moment he activates it bcos you cant turn it off... so its a fight to a finish? haha

T-up overall, just change the skill names will ya, esp Bide LOL and btw love the range str hero, dota needs more of tt, theres only huskar atm...

#7 Thoth-

Thoth-

    Imbalanced Judge

  • Validating
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2945 posts
  • Interests:RAWR.
  • Bnet Name:Thoth-
  • Bnet Realm:Kalimdor
  • Potential:R

Posted 06 May 2009 - 05:31 AM

QUOTE(XchaosfireX @ May 6 2009, 09:31 PM) View Post

haha why issit that you come with the nicest synergies haha

ok anyway all the skills are superb, just repeating the abovementioned concern about flame pulse, does it activate twice upon dealt 200 dmg in one hit, perhaps there shld b a cd like germinate attack

and for its ulti, does it mean that he definitely will die e moment he activates it bcos you cant turn it off... so its a fight to a finish? haha

T-up overall, just change the skill names will ya, esp Bide LOL and btw love the range str hero, dota needs more of tt, theres only huskar atm...

Thank you for your comment and compliment. I dunno, maybe it just requires a bit more thought then you can come up with something cool.

I'm sorry, I forgot to add a proc limit to Pulse similar to Counter Helix as stated in the previous post. My bad.

Yes, it's a fight to the finish, but he can live if he ends it quickly and runs to a safe place to recuperate.

LOL, it's based on a Pokémon game which I liked, so...

#8 ENCIIBeast

ENCIIBeast

    Enthusiast

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 329 posts
  • Bnet Name:ENCIIBeast
  • Bnet Realm:Azeroth

Posted 06 May 2009 - 06:10 AM

Maybe you could scale all the skills to have the same AoE. Right now you have AoE's of 300, 500, and 600. Just kind of a pain to land your damage unless people are right next to you.

I'd give some more HP to that egg. At high levels if you have to wait 3 seconds to hatch, and most of the enemy team can probably 1 hit your egg, you'd die a lot.

Beyond that t-up. Nice concepts.

Could you do me the honor of reviewing my hero as well? It's in my sig.

#9 Dark Rogue

Dark Rogue

    Teardrop in the fire

  • Moderators
  • 3069 posts
  • Bnet Name:omg I haz a Bnet name?!
  • Bnet Realm:none
  • Potential:Pwn

Posted 06 May 2009 - 08:47 AM

Suckup... tongue.gif

#10 notoriousdrb

notoriousdrb

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Bnet Name:notoriousdoctorb
  • Bnet Realm:Azeroth

Posted 06 May 2009 - 05:15 PM

Ok..my math might be off by a bit but i calculated what the ult + pulse would amount to..I would have posted it earlier but the guys at work decided today would be a great day to block the forums after 3 months of using it ROFL.png

Normal Hero - 25% reduc
The ult would do 131 dmg/sec, since the ult does pure damage to Pendragon pulse would proc every second causing 75 damage.  I totalled the damage that would be taken after reduction in the following list progressively.  Now pendragon would take the full 175 damage if the ult is maxed, not adding what long range nukes would be flying at her.
  1. 206
  2. 412
  3. 618
  4. 824
  5. 1030
  6. 1236

This does not factor in bide, but if it did at lvl 4 it would deal ~300 damage if the enemies did melee you.  And by the time the 6 seconds listed is up you would take 1050 damage from immolation alone.

Hood Hero ~48%
  1. 143
  2. 286
  3. 429
  4. 572
  5. 715
  6. 858

As you can see they take considerably less damage, and any competent player would buy a hood if teamed against this hero.  Again not counting in Bide which would do ~200 damage.

Magina T-T ~68%
  1. 88
  2. 176
  3. 264
  4. 352
  5. 440
  6. 528

This little bugger would take half the damage you do to yourself if he had himself a hood, definetly not someone you want to go against tongue.gif

All in all it would be a decent hero in a team battle, 1v1 it depends on the competency of the opponent and if they have ranged disables.  Most will probably just stun and run.

Even in a team battle you would probably only last 10 seconds with the ult activated unless you have a healer(would repel negate the immolate?), by 10 seconds you'd take a total of 1750 from immolate alone.






#11 Thoth-

Thoth-

    Imbalanced Judge

  • Validating
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2945 posts
  • Interests:RAWR.
  • Bnet Name:Thoth-
  • Bnet Realm:Kalimdor
  • Potential:R

Posted 06 May 2009 - 05:21 PM

Those are quite amazing numbers and it's clear Magina would be a perfect counter to this Hero, especially since he can Blink in and out and locate the egg if Pendragon managed to escape to certain safety.

I tried my best to come up with initial numbers that would seem balanced. I had a long time comparing Immolation skills such as Radiance, Rot, etc. and the results seem promising.

@Dark Rogue: He's probably the one who voted td.gif

#12 notoriousdrb

notoriousdrb

    Newbie

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 8 posts
  • Bnet Name:notoriousdoctorb
  • Bnet Realm:Azeroth

Posted 06 May 2009 - 05:33 PM

I had a more complete list but i left it at work sleep.gif

I do have a few questions though, would the ult be based off immolate? if so then it shouldn't stack with radiance, also if Repel would do the same it does for pudge with rot.

Also just had a quick idea for Bide, when you "explode" put a mini stun or a 1 sec stun to give atleast one disable, even if it is for a second (which can amount to a good amount of damage).

Edited by notoriousdrb, 06 May 2009 - 05:42 PM.


#13 Thoth-

Thoth-

    Imbalanced Judge

  • Validating
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2945 posts
  • Interests:RAWR.
  • Bnet Name:Thoth-
  • Bnet Realm:Kalimdor
  • Potential:R

Posted 06 May 2009 - 05:51 PM

QUOTE(notoriousdrb @ May 7 2009, 09:33 AM) View Post

I had a more complete list but i left it at work sleep.gif

I do have a few questions though, would the ult be based off immolate? if so then it shouldn't stack with radiance, also if Repel would do the same it does for pudge with rot.

Also just had a quick idea for Bide, when you "explode" put a mini stun or a 1 sec stun to give atleast one disable, even if it is for a second (which can amount to a good amount of damage).

Can you post it once you have it? And lol, good luck with work. I still have a lot of years before I experience that.

I think it would be much like Rot, because I wanted this guy to get Radiance anyway, lol. Anyway, Repel would not prevent this guy from taking damage as it is triggered to reduce HP, meaning spell immunity does nothing. It would however, give an enemy 20 seconds of immunity, so going 1vs1 with Omniknight isn't a very good thing, considering the fact you can't even chase him.

Though I know if I made it physical damage it would go through magic immunity, it will be considerably weaker late game, so never mind.

Can I base Flare Pulse on Brilliance Aura so it can't be stopped? Need programming help here, Counter Helix style.

Yes, a mini-stun would be appreciated. It would also prevent TP escapes!

Edited by Thoth-, 06 May 2009 - 05:55 PM.


#14 hofmanhofamazin

hofmanhofamazin

    Stay thirsty, my friends.

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1081 posts
  • Bnet Name:hofmanhofamazin
  • Bnet Realm:Lordaeron
  • Potential:CR

Posted 06 May 2009 - 08:05 PM

Overall it's a nice hero, but imo Bide and Flare Pulse are rather redundant.

#15 swer_tert

swer_tert

    get behind me satan

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1003 posts
  • Bnet Name:swer_tert
  • Bnet Realm:Northrend

Posted 06 May 2009 - 11:13 PM

what i don't like about this hero is that he is more or less a one trick pony. He only has one way to play in big teamfights: activate ulti, then try to keep near the enemies so as to deal huge damage with it and the third skill and use bide at the right time to deal further damage. The first skill can be used at will, when it is deemed more needed in the battle

Frankly, it reminds me of Leshrac. Crazy AoE damages plus a hard to land disable

The difference? He is not a glass-cannon INT hero, but a STR hero, who can heavily endure all the pain and focus he will propably recieve from enemies trying to stop this living hell that is going on around them. And he has the ulti's egg effect to have a slight chance of starting anew after all the rape that he either gave to his enemies and endured for his allies' sake

To sum up, my concerns:
  • He is a one trick pony. Ofc his skills can be used in many ways, depending on the situation (ie available MP, cooldowns, the needs of the battle), but more or less his big teamfights at least will be the same
  • Too similar to already existing hero (leshrac) in terms of playstyle
  • He can achieve more or less what Leshrac can achieve, but also a lot more, since he is a STR; which means that he is far superior to him, since he can also tank really good. My problem is the fact that he is better conceptually from a hero that is considered balanced. SO, is his concept balanced?

holding vote to see if you can persuade me to vote positively, otherwise leaning towards to null

#16 Thoth-

Thoth-

    Imbalanced Judge

  • Validating
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2945 posts
  • Interests:RAWR.
  • Bnet Name:Thoth-
  • Bnet Realm:Kalimdor
  • Potential:R

Posted 06 May 2009 - 11:20 PM

QUOTE(swer_tert @ May 7 2009, 03:13 PM) View Post

To sum up, my concerns:
  • He is a one trick pony. Ofc his skills can be used in many ways, depending on the situation (ie available MP, cooldowns, the needs of the battle), but more or less his big teamfights at least will be the same
  • Too similar to already existing hero (leshrac) in terms of playstyle
  • He can achieve more or less what Leshrac can achieve, but also a lot more, since he is a STR; which means that he is far superior to him, since he can also tank really good. My problem is the fact that he is better conceptually from a hero that is considered balanced. SO, is his concept balanced?

You can't fix that on most Heroes, except you know, Invoker. What's good is that it can be used in different ways am I right? That's what's basically needed and wanted anyway.

Don't you think tanking damage isn't Leshrac's playstyle? I admit both have large AoE nukes, but Pulse Nova is just meh and not unique.

Leshrac has a permanent safety net if used correctly while this Hero only has a 5/4/3 second safety net even when used it its best. While Pendragon can potentially achieve better, there is also a large number of risk involved in it, whereas Leshrac has none, aside from his pitiful HP. And even if Pendragon is STR, he focuses on eliminating his HP.

And his concept would not work as an INT anyway.

#17 swer_tert

swer_tert

    get behind me satan

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1003 posts
  • Bnet Name:swer_tert
  • Bnet Realm:Northrend

Posted 06 May 2009 - 11:59 PM

QUOTE
You can't fix that on most Heroes, except you know, Invoker. What's good is that it can be used in different ways am I right? That's what's basically needed and wanted anyway.
well, ofc you can, just give them a wider range of skills that connect a bit more loosely together, like for example Dark Seer or Necrolyte or Vengeful spirit or all these countless heroes that don't have direct or immense skill synergy but manage to work pretty well. Yes, it can be used in different ways, but you never stray far from the only thing he does: (AoE) damage. The examples i gave can do heaps of great things. What i am trying to say is that DotA needs heroes that allow somebody to use his imagination, intuition and creativity and come up with great results, not just one trick ponies. And i think that Icefrog is trying to tell us this, if you look at the majority of the new heroes he has brought in DotA (basically the heroes at the Dawn and Dusk taverns)

QUOTE
Don't you think tanking damage isn't Leshrac's playstyle? I admit both have large AoE nukes, but Pulse Nova is just meh and not unique.
well, i don't get your argument here. No i don't think that tanking damage is Leshrac's playstyle. And what does Pulse Nova's uniqueness have to do with the concerns i have over your hero?

QUOTE
Leshrac has a permanent safety net if used correctly while this Hero only has a 5/4/3 second safety net even when used it its best.
what's leshrac's permanent safety net?

QUOTE
While Pendragon can potentially achieve better, there is also a large number of risk involved in it, whereas Leshrac has none, aside from his pitiful HP.
Basically you just contradicted yourself, if Leshrac has "no risk involved in it, aside from his pitiful HP", then he has risk involved, which is his pitiful HP

QUOTE
And even if Pendragon is STR, he focuses on eliminating his HP.
that's the point of a good STR tank, you know

QUOTE
And his concept would not work as an INT anyway.
ofc, because it would require lots of HP, and if you wanted to eliminate that, by making the approrpiate changes then he would be the same as Leshrac. But i don't get why you said that here]

Anyway, i know that he won't be the "same as Leshrac" in terms of playstyle, because the skills have different effects and mechanics. But in terms of role, he will be, because it simply is an AoE-around the hero damager. The fact that he also has a hard-to-land disable, to help him maximize his damage if he is skilled enough to use it correctly, just makes the similarities more apparent

Edited by swer_tert, 06 May 2009 - 11:51 PM.


#18 Thoth-

Thoth-

    Imbalanced Judge

  • Validating
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2945 posts
  • Interests:RAWR.
  • Bnet Name:Thoth-
  • Bnet Realm:Kalimdor
  • Potential:R

Posted 07 May 2009 - 12:29 AM

QUOTE(swer_tert @ May 7 2009, 03:59 PM) View Post

well, ofc you can, just give them a wider range of skills that connect a bit more loosely together, like for example Dark Seer or Necrolyte or Vengeful spirit or all these countless heroes that don't have direct or immense skill synergy but manage to work pretty well. Yes, it can be used in different ways, but you never stray far from the only thing he does: (AoE) damage. The examples i gave can do heaps of great things. What i am trying to say is that DotA needs heroes that allow somebody to use his imagination, intuition and creativity and come up with great results, not just one trick ponies. And i think that Icefrog is trying to tell us this, if you look at the majority of the new heroes he has brought in DotA (basically the heroes at the Dawn and Dusk taverns)

Well, my point is his Ultimate is too big for him, thus he needs two skills to utilize it. Flare Pulse can do someting else beside AoE if it pleases you and can still perfectly synergize, just with a different effect.
QUOTE(swer_tert @ May 7 2009, 03:59 PM) View Post

well, i don't get your argument here. No i don't think that tanking damage is Leshrac's playstyle. And what does Pulse Nova's uniqueness have to do with the concerns i have over your hero?

It is because Pulse Nova is essentially the same as Phoenix Fire, which might be the one pushing you to think this is too similar to Leshrac.
QUOTE(swer_tert @ May 7 2009, 03:59 PM) View Post

what's leshrac's permanent safety net?

He can dish out any kind of damage without hurting himself, excluding any outside source.
QUOTE(swer_tert @ May 7 2009, 03:59 PM) View Post

Basically you just contradicted yourself, if Leshrac has "no risk involved in it, aside from his pitiful HP", then he has risk involved, which is his pitiful HP

Well, of course we have to exclude that as this is a matter of skills. Please stop pursuing pointless conversations on things I have already said to be excluded, which is the point of the word "aside".
QUOTE(swer_tert @ May 7 2009, 03:59 PM) View Post

that's the point of a good STR tank, you know

No, it's not. The point of a STR tank is to take as much damage as possible from enemies and to attract attention, not suicide himself using his skills. He can take advantage of his health, but that is not a tank by most means.
QUOTE(swer_tert @ May 7 2009, 03:59 PM) View Post

ofc, because it would require lots of HP, and if you wanted to eliminate that, by making the approrpiate changes then he would be the same as Leshrac. But i don't get why you said that here]

I am stating differences between him and Leshrac, but why must you try to relate it?
QUOTE(swer_tert @ May 7 2009, 03:59 PM) View Post

Anyway, i know that he won't be the "same as Leshrac" in terms of playstyle, because the skills have different effects and mechanics. But in terms of role, he will be, because it simply is an AoE-around the hero damager. The fact that he also has a hard-to-land disable, to help him maximize his damage if he is skilled enough to use it correctly, just makes the similarities more apparent
Leshrac is not the only AoE Hero. Leshrac is not the only Hero with a disable to maximize damage. And of course a disable is meant to maximize damage output, unless you're stating I should disable him then make him invulnerable. That isn't the point of me putting a disable. Would I rather make him useless just to be less similar? Not quite.


#19 Killroy

Killroy

    Enthusiast

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2133 posts
  • Bnet Name:Dark-Killroy
  • Bnet Realm:Northrend

Posted 07 May 2009 - 02:36 AM

I love the concept but I have to agree with Swer_tert, he is a big of a one trick pony. Let me explain why and mention some other points I have troubles with/questions about:

1) Skill 2 and 3 do almost the same thing, deal damage based on hp lost. The ulti makes you loose hp so skill 2 and 3 will always work wonders. All you need is some way of staying close to the enemy. So phase boots and S&Y could be solid items on this hero.

2) The only skill that is not based around hurting yourself and that is actually a support skill is the flame wall. Nice variant of ice path. Nothing wrong with that.

3) If you combine skill 2, 3 and 4 together you will see the incredible potential on this hero. Start the fight with a 400 nuke, activate ulti and deal 275 dam per sec (combined damage of 3 and 4). After 10 secs another nuke and you have dealt 3550 magical damage in 10 secs in an AoE. Ouch, nothing can beat that, not even leshrac with scepter and shiva.
So what you want is to kill this hero as fast as possible. This is the tank that you have to focus. That concept I like a lot. This would also make blademail your core build. Activate the ulti, wait till you get attacked and then activate blademail. If they don't focus you then even more damage around him.

4) Armlet is really abusable on this hero. The hp loss makes farming a breeze on this hero. Get some regen with it and just activate armlet every creepwave. Within 10 secs you have dealt 300 AoE and you can then use your nuke to finish them all off. Farmfest.

5) Since he can farm like mad, it would mean that he would be able to get armlet, vanguard, HoT, blademail, phaseboots pretty fast. Good luck killing him without being killed. And the thing is, the farmfest only costs him 75 mana per creepwave. Not even counting flamewall.

6) We are talking about a str ranged hero with incredible str gain so his tank purpose is clear. With the current numbers there is nobody who can take him on as I made clear in point 3 already. If the fight is not over in a few seconds you are going to die.

7) I love the idea of the ulti with rehatching. Phoenix from the flames. Used mostly after a big fight. Teleport back in the end to the fountain and rehatch there. Find a juke spot and rehatch, etc...

Overall unique hero with very fun possibilities. Overall damage potential is way too high if you ask me. He can farm like mad for absolutely no mana. Armlet is abusable on this hero so maybe restrict it or change something. Very much leaning towards a T-up but the hero needs some tuning and toning.

#20 Talor Karos

Talor Karos

    Power Overwhelming

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1001 posts
  • Bnet Name:G.I. Joe™
  • Bnet Realm:Lordaeron

Posted 07 May 2009 - 03:06 AM

Got my attention. PM me tomorrow to get my attention again so I can give a review. I'm logging off. Good luck with Pen here. Oh and what Dark Rogue said. I bet you're coming up with a hero idea that's named Dark or Rogue or how about Drogue? ROFL.png laugh.png

P.S. Love the synergies.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users