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[CLOSED][Ultimate] Coup De Grace


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Poll: Coup De Grace change (13 member(s) have cast votes)

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#1 clarencedarrow

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 01:21 PM

Old Skill
Coup de Graçe IPB Image
Mortred has refined her hero-killing skills to a high degree.
Level
1 15% chance to 2.0x critical
2 15% chance to 3.0x critical
3 15% chance to 4.0x critical

New Skill
Coup de Graçe IPB Image
Mortred has refined her killing skills to a high degree.  Through years of assassination, Mortred has learned to be able to cleave through ranks of foes to strike down opposing heroes.
Level
1 15% chance to 2.0x critical and a 5% cleave
2 15% chance to 3.0x critical and a 10% cleave
3 15% chance to 4.0x critical and a 15% cleave

I had originally though of doing something like chance to cleave 100% or something like that, but though the possibility of double critical/cleaves would be a bit much in team fights and would be excessive for farming purposes.

Which is essentially what the point of this change is.  She can early game last hit with Dagger.  But she really needed a Battlefury to farm up to items that made her worthwhile.  And really it's not like Faceless Void where he has some game breaking skills.  Everything about Mortred depends on her getting her items.  So why not help her out?  A 15% cleave is in itself not that much, though when you realize she cleaves the critical damage as well it is an effective 30% cleave.  

Vote on Ideas no Concepts.

Edited by clarencedarrow, 20 August 2008 - 11:41 AM.


#2 {Avenger}DaNTe{JaCKaSS}

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 02:25 PM

Instant buff to one of the most feared ultimates of the game?? blink.gif

After what I heard about the "noob protection" on criticals, the fact that you can't have a row of NO criticals, your hero MUST crit and thus its not really totally "chance" based.

I must admit I don't like it.

Holding Vote thou


#3 clarencedarrow

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 02:33 PM

QUOTE({Avenger}DaNTe{JaCKaSS} @ Aug 19 2008, 05:25 PM) View Post

Instant buff to one of the most feared ultimates of the game?? blink.gif


Umm....  I'd like to live where this is the most feared ultimate in the game.  Most heroes wouldn't even level up their critical at level 6, and late game there are better abilities.

QUOTE({Avenger}DaNTe{JaCKaSS} @ Aug 19 2008, 05:25 PM) View Post
After what I heard about the "noob protection" on criticals, the fact that you can't have a row of NO criticals, your hero MUST crit and thus its not really totally "chance" based.


I'm not really sure what you are talking about here.  

Unless if you are saying that a chance to critical is not a "chance" but rather a certainty within a time-range to critical.  Which, I wouldn't really understand why you would bother saying.

Hot profile picture though.

#4 {Avenger}DaNTe{JaCKaSS}

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 02:39 PM

QUOTE(clarencedarrow @ Aug 19 2008, 10:33 PM) View Post

Umm....  I'd like to live where this is the most feared ultimate in the game.  Most heroes wouldn't even level up their critical at level 6, and late game there are better abilities.
I'm not really sure what you are talking about here.  


@lvl16 deals insane amounts of damage and turns mortred from a mediocre melee that can blink to a fearsome damage dealing machine that chases you no prob.

QUOTE
Unless if you are saying that a chance to critical is not a "chance" but rather a certainty within a time-range to critical.  Which, I wouldn't really understand why you would bother saying.


Check this out! and you'll see what am I referring to.

QUOTE
Hot profile picture though.


Well, what to say here... blush.gif Thanks wink.gif

#5 clarencedarrow

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 04:27 PM

QUOTE({Avenger}DaNTe{JaCKaSS} @ Aug 19 2008, 05:39 PM) View Post

@lvl16 deals insane amounts of damage and turns mortred from a mediocre melee that can blink to a fearsome damage dealing machine that chases you no prob.


I don't get what you're trying to say here.  How does this make her "chase you no prob"?  Her blink and slow skills are the same.  How does this make her a "fearsome damage dealing machine"?  She has the same critical chance on an enemy so single target damage will not go up.

Are you saying that Mortred is just really good and thus doesn't need any buff?  If that's your case, I'd really like to hear the substance of it.  

Imo, she needs help.  She needs items.  This usually means she ends up getting a Battlefury so that she can clear creeps at a decent rate and the bonus being not lost for critical purposes.  However, she can't farm well either.  Battlefury isn't exactly cheap.  Nor does it address raw HP concerns.  Needs HPs and Battlefury + can't farm well is not a good combination.  

Addressing one of those with a cleave that isn't even that great at first level will go a long way to picking up the items that she'll need to get to be a late carry.

#6 DiDiKoNG

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 04:42 PM

Why not making it : 15% chance to deal 2/3/4 times the damage, but 50% chance to deal 100% of the damage in cleaving attack.

So on, you get :

15% chance to deal a critical strike
50% chance to deal all damage over an area on a critical strike.

OR

15% chance to deal a critical strike.
7.5% chance to deal 200/300/400% of your damage in a huge aoe.
So on, the cleaving is equal to a 15%/22.5%/30% cleaving attack, so it won't be too much.

That's only a suggestion. After all, that's not what replies are for?

#7 Kira`

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 06:22 PM

I don't think that Coup de Grace needs this. There's BFury for cleave attack. This ulti alone is already a frightening skill among all in DotA. PA can kill only in 3 hits if she had a good item or she's so lucky. Her blur and blink support this too. No need to add cleave, it just make it more imba

sorry but t-d

#8 ithoughtisawasheep

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 07:33 PM

QUOTE({Avenger}DaNTe{JaCKaSS} @ Aug 19 2008, 06:25 PM) View Post

Instant buff to one of the most feared ultimates of the game?? O_o


...Are you f*cking serious? Coup is one of the worst ults in the game.

QUOTE({Avenger}DaNTe{JaCKaSS} @ Aug 19 2008, 06:25 PM) View Post

After what I heard about the "noob protection" on criticals, the fact that you can't have a row of NO criticals, your hero MUST crit and thus its not really totally "chance" based.

I must admit I don't like it.


Crits are still chance based. However, blizzard uses a linear distribution for critical hits instead of an absolute x% per hits so that it is very hard for a hero to continously hit criticals and have a 4x increase in dps. Crits would be stronger, not weaker, without the system blizzard implemented because getting a series of noncrits on a 15% crit is barely noticible while getting a string of crits would be insane.

BTW to op: I suggest you repost this on balancing.

Edited by ithoughtisawasheep, 19 August 2008 - 07:38 PM.


#9 Senbonzakira

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 07:58 PM

No, it's already powerful let alone killing a team of 5 heroes in 3 crits.

#10 Virtviuz

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 08:01 PM

LoL a 2 free skill of magnus combine into one potent skill

@ithoughtisawasheep
it's not one of the worst, its leveling is just way too "stupid" I mean 15% chance at level 6 for just a puny 2x damage while yurnero can get 30something % to deal 2x his damage at level 8 or something (assuming that he did not go attri build which is somehow a little stupid)

Nessaj gets a little weaker version of 11% chance to deal 3x damage.
• he also has a stun
• illusions
• and blinkstrike
• high base damage
Leo gets a 15% change to deal 2.75 damage or something
• he also has a stun
• a very synergical 2nd passive skill
• 2nd life

while morth has to wait until she reaches level 11 or 16 to call this an ulti.

@OP
coup de grace just needs a rebalancing to buff its effects early game and weaken it late game..

#11 mm26

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 11:00 PM

Any serious buff to this shitty heroe is welcomed. Unfortunetely i think numbers needs tweaking. Problem with
CpdG atm is that it scales really badly.. LV 1 and LV 2 are just terrible not even worthy to call it an ultimate.
For example - lv 1 gives +15% dps - if you have 70 damage it increase your dps to 80 ? Any non ultimate skill is hell lot of better at this point. Howl probably gives +60% dps at this point. I would t-up if you change crit multiplier to 3 , 3.5 , 4 (or something similar). Anyway it looks like a good idea - you could get only one bfurry instead of 2.
I wish you good luck on your suggestion but based on my experience any serious buff  to PA has really small chances on this forum. Here is just to many noobs without any sense of balance.

@Virtviuz
Weaken it late game? She is already weaker late game then any other late gamer so you probably lost your mind.


Edited by mm26, 19 August 2008 - 11:10 PM.


#12 Virtviuz

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 11:39 PM

@above
• Consult other forumers and they will tell you that the big problem about her is she farms very slow compared to other late-gamer.(that's why the dagger skill of her gave such a huge impact to her game.)
• The early levels of her ulti is shit compared to the 3rd level of her ulti.

Also her ulti is too dependent on item (damage increasing ones) other than that her ulti is a bit (yeah just a bit) too powerful being able to score a +1000 crit at late game if fed well and has farmed well.

plus, on the topic..
Cleave is just the wrong way to go. (sure it would increase her farming potential but think about this free battlefury for morth meaning after she get BKB, threads, she would immediately rush damage increasing item in this case rapier.

and oh yeah we balance dota for both pub whiners and league pros.

Edited by Virtviuz, 19 August 2008 - 11:41 PM.


#13 q0rY

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 11:49 PM

QUOTE(Virtviuz @ Aug 19 2008, 11:01 PM) View Post

LoL a 2 free skill of magnus combine into one potent skill

@ithoughtisawasheep
it's not one of the worst, its leveling is just way too "stupid" I mean 15% chance at level 6 for just a puny 2x damage while yurnero can get 30something % to deal 2x his damage at level 8 or something (assuming that he did not go attri build which is somehow a little stupid)

Nessaj gets a little weaker version of 11% chance to deal 3x damage.
• he also has a stun
• illusions
• and blinkstrike
• high base damage
Leo gets a 15% change to deal 2.75 damage or something
• he also has a stun
• a very synergical 2nd passive skill
• 2nd life

while morth has to wait until she reaches level 11 or 16 to call this an ulti.

@OP
coup de grace just needs a rebalancing to buff its effects early game and weaken it late game..



ever played vs her, when she has vlad & butterfly?
imba! o.O

she got a slow
has evasion
an imba crit
and can chase with her blink

in my opinion: no buff!


leo's crit is normally skilled past lvl 6 or 8.


Edited by q0rY, 19 August 2008 - 11:52 PM.


#14 Mega-Ki11er

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 12:39 AM

mortred is imba late game as it is u dont need to help her farm more..
just farm bf 25 min if u can
t-down

#15 mm26

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 03:25 AM

QUOTE(q0rY @ Aug 20 2008, 08:49 AM) View Post

ever played vs her, when she has vlad & butterfly?
imba! o.O

she got a slow
has evasion
an imba crit
and can chase with her blink

in my opinion: no buff!
leo's crit is normally skilled past lvl 6 or 8.

As i mentioned above your suggestion hasnt any chance cos  noobs are allowed to vote. Vlad + bfly build is so bad that its not even worth comments.

#16 clarencedarrow

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 11:40 AM

Though this is a fast sinking ship, lowered the cleave numbers to 5%/10%/15% to take more into account the critical/cleave interaction.

And to respond to "it's imbal for pub play", if people thought that she was imbalance before I don't see why this would make her more imbalanced.  

You can't make creeps spawn at a faster rate and if you are farming enough to get her to late game then having a farming skill isn't going to help you out that much.  A farming skill can't make you farm faster, it just makes you farm more efficiently.  This matters in game where farming is difficult, but not in games where farming is easy.

I.e. if she is too good and can get to her late game items, the farming ability doesn't help because it doesn't get her gold any faster nor does it make her stronger once she gets them.  It's only useful in cases where she can't farm effecitively, which is where she has problems.

#17 Quibs

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 05:29 PM

Mortred is easy to destroy throughout most of the game, and her ultimate is laughable until she gets at least +150 damage through items by level 16. But i reckon a TB, Antimage, Chaos Knight, Bounty Hunter and many more would be more powerful with the same items...

So give her a buff and what you are proposing is a buff so yay go for it T UP.

#18 Thecanexiststoholdinthespam

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 05:45 PM

Mortred remakes should target her early game farming and last-hitting abillities, shouldn't they? The cleave chance seems rather redundant.. if she survives early, (which she usually won't against a good team,) she needs to pour so much stuff into damage items.

     I like the idea of your remake, but it seems to be trying to make her stronger later, rather than earlier. By the time splash-crits become devastating, Mort has already won the game anyways, so that's really not an issue. What you really need is some kind of buff to help her deny.

Null.

#19 {Avenger}DaNTe{JaCKaSS}

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 03:36 AM

What I meant to say is that she can already chase and slow like hell and u buff her critical? Mass melee<<<2xBfury now and she won't need to buy that now... Max 1 Bfury and she'll spread death in AoE...

Try playing with care and farm as much as you can. The come out w/ 2 Furies and a magnus ally and rape everything in like 3 hits and 2 crits.

Adding crits like this due to WC3 coding makes heroes with crit actually more powerful than we think. Sure its still luck but its not in any way like Multicast's chance where it might not occur at all. Got it?

And I didn't compare it to any Reverse Polarity or Black Hole... These are imba ultimates. Go see why there's no AoE disabling ultimate in ladder... closedeyes.gif Moreover, BM has Morty's ultimate as a normal skill...

#20 Virtviuz

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 05:08 AM

@q0rY
LoL!!!
I would like to introduce the item called guinsoo to you if you haven't heard of it yet. Morthred's evasion is the main reason why her build is so crappy, she can't even buy the agi tier item called butterfly.

@Mega-Ki11er
try fighting a pro jungle (like rexxar) or anybody that knows how to ward and constantly push and you will go like Oh crap! I can't even farm.

P.S. nukers and disablers rapes her ass good...

Edited by Virtviuz, 21 August 2008 - 05:10 AM.





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