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[CLOSED][ITEM] Changing Blink Dagger back to Dagger of Escape


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Poll: Your opinion. (19 member(s) have cast votes)

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#1 wussyib

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 10:47 AM

*Edit- sorry, my first post, don't know how to make it a poll ;\*

This is something I feel very strongly about. I was completely dumbfounded when I discovered several versions ago that Blink was made to have a 3 sec. CD upon taking damage.

IMHO, this completely devoids the use of Blink Dagger. Granted, it's still absolutely relevant with heros who take advantage of it to initiate fights (i.e. Tiny blink>avalanche>toss), however, it's main strength, and I believe the original purpose of the item, was to give an "out" to heros that badly needed it.

We all know that perfect hero balance will be impossible in a game with so many different units, but the beauty was that the gap could be shortened with smart item choices.

Specifically, intel hero's  who lose effectiveness late game moreso then agi and strength hero's, often need outs. They're crippled by not being able to tank, having slow movespeeds, and burning all their spells and not being able to stun, or being silenced.

Blink Dagger was the ONLY equalizer these situations, and now , it's completely useless.

I'm not completely aware for the reasons of why Blink Dagger was changed, but it's such a crucial part of high level dota to be messing with when it was fine to begin with. If the reasoning was that it just needed a nerf, why not just increase the cost to the point where an average player wouldn't even think about buying? Maybe in the high 2k's? even 3k?

God knows when I'm in games where I'm an intel and all I can do is watch an Avatar'ed Naix or a Drow w/silence destroy me, I'd be more then willing to pay 3k for the original Blink Dagger.

-Wuss

Edited by wussyib, 15 August 2008 - 10:53 AM.


#2 #CrY

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 11:00 AM

Hello.

Here's a tutorial on how to create polls. *Click*

Anyways, if you'd still mess up, you could report this topic to a moderator who can add the poll tag for you.

Edited by CrYnOOb, 15 August 2008 - 11:02 AM.


#3 Major Noob

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 11:21 AM

I made a topic to see how many people would be in favor of making another dagger for the purpose of escape, just out of curiosity:
http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showtopic=234476
and right now it's 1 t-up to 5 t-downs

#4 k900

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 12:17 PM

Binary poll added. Here is a tutorial to help you learn about creating binary polls for your future suggestions.

#5 HuM_Ji_FhuK

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Posted 16 August 2008 - 03:18 AM

it is still a dagger of escape, as long as you can escape 3 seconds of no damage.

#6 Mittsies

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Posted 17 August 2008 - 04:27 PM

You think new Kelen's is "worthless"? Well, old Kelen's was excessively OP. 2150 gold for tons of mobility, free kills, escaping death at the last second? It was just rediculous. Increasing the price to get "old" blink dagger is also a horrible idea; because then it makes it useless for heroes like Earthshaker or Sand King who only buy it to make their ultimate ability a triple-kill machine. If I had to spend 3000 on a dagger, I'd just rather go straight for my other core items and completely forget the dagger -- or hell, just buy a Lothar's for a little bit more. New Kelen's has lost some of its effectiveness for escape, but that is a necessary nerf considering that being able to blink out of a group of 5 heroes with no effort while they're all whacking at you is pretty imbalanced.

T-Down.

#7 mastershan

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Posted 18 August 2008 - 12:43 AM

Shouldn't this be in the suggestions discussion? Anyway, i agree that it's not very "stylish" to add a "3 sec. unharmed" prerequisite for using an item but look at the heroes with DoTs or slows now: they gained back their power! Many people are complaining that brood is imba now, why do you think this is? I don't want to go back to the days where you should always have a stun to get the kill.

#8 Manwe_Sulimo

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Posted 18 August 2008 - 10:24 AM

in the last versions before the dagger was changed you read in EVERY fucking guide of any hero except heroes with their own escape spells (blink itself, or similar spells, and ww) to buy dagger, it became simple excessivle overused

no it's fine as it is now, just needs to be a bit balanced now (gold cost, cd, mana cost -> lower)

#9 charcoal80

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Posted 18 August 2008 - 11:05 AM

As many people said, old Dagger is OP. Same thing with old Aegis.

#10 NinjaWithSpoons

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Posted 19 August 2008 - 09:31 AM

When 8 or even 10 out of 10 people in a game buy an item, it means the item is overpowered. It detracts from the diversity of builds in the game and it made heroes without disables pretty much unable to kill any hero. That is why it was nerfed.
You can still use dagger to escape in many situations, you just have to preemptively blink rather than wait until you are almost dead which will require more skill. Good juking can give you the time to blink as well.

#11 wussyib

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 01:15 PM

QUOTE(NinjaWithSpoons @ Aug 19 2008, 10:31 AM) View Post

When 8 or even 10 out of 10 people in a game buy an item, it means the item is overpowered.



Don't really understand that logic. By that definition, treads and travels are overpowered. So are tangos, and wraith bands, etc etc etc.

I don't fully understand any argument that classifies the old blink as overpowered. Most "god tier" heros, i.e. the strongest heros in the game have some form of blink. Morph has wave, void has timewalk, PA ha blink, Spirit breaker has netherstrike, etc. etc. etc. Obviously its redundant for many of these characters to get blink, so one of the main purposes of blink was to allow lower tiered heros the ability to escape the more ownage heros.

The 3 sec. cooldown might as well be 50 seconds. Cuz 9 times out of 10, if I'm running for 3 seconds, I've either A. Got away scott free, or B. Spell has CD so I can stun and continue to run. Blink was the ONLY out in many situations for many underpowered heros.

And so what if blink allows someone to escape a 1v5? How is that overpowered? Is anyone preventing one of that 5 from getting their own blink and finishing the kill? No. As it stands, the current blink prevents that 1 guy from escaping, but makes it incredibly easier for people who give chase and kill. If you ask me, that's overpowered.

And the three second cooldown. Really? Props to Ice Frog and the beta testing team for creating the greatest mod known to man. But opting a "one-off" condition on an item in order to make balance is very poor game design. With that logic, if guinsoo's was considered overpowered tomorrow, would it be acceptable to have a 3 second/dmg cooldown on that as well? how about BKB, or euls, or satanic. I mean, if that's the preferred method of item balancing, it shouldn't stop at just Blink, correct?

Essentially, all of you guys that are claiming blink was "overpowered" before, are supporting my claim that its useless now. When the blink is referenced as "overpowered" its usually within the context of using it in conjunction with some retardedly powerful ability. I.E.  Luna with blink, troll with blink, sven with blink, blah blah. *insert any good hero + Blink*. So wat does enforcing a 3 sec/dmg/cooldown enforce? It allows those already strong heros to still initiate attacks with blink, but disallows underpowered heros from escaping?

It seems absolutely ridiculous to me. Essentially, blink has been redesigned to keep the imba'ness of initaiting, but removing the helpfulness of actually escaping.

It would be infinitely preferable if the current blink was just removed from the game. Having an item altered to heavily favor one use (initiation) and nerfing the other (escape) just boggles me.

Edited by wussyib, 20 August 2008 - 01:25 PM.


#12 wussyib

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 01:30 PM

Instead of just ranting, I should probably just offer a hypothetical solution as well....

If the old blink was used to prolifically in games, why not just adjust the CD? If the CD was painfully long, like refresher, people would be more proned to choose how to use it.

Meaning, if it was a long CD, it wouldn't be used so indiscriminately as some of you claim the old Blink was used. If  I had to wait (for example, not sayin this is the right number) 3 mins for every blink, I'd be damned to sure to save it for a good kill, OR ... to make sure that I definately have it up to get away if I need too. Instead of spamming it for both at a whim.

Maybe a combination of this , as well as a cost hike? I mean, long CD, 3k+ cost for an item with no dmg or stats? I can almost guarantee that "10 out of 10" people in a game won't buy an item like that, but the crystal maiden getting 3 shot by naix and drow would buy it in a heartbeat .

#13 Torchic Maniac

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 01:33 PM

QUOTE
I'm not completely aware for the reasons of why Blink Dagger was changed, but it's such a crucial part of high level dota to be messing with when it was fine to begin with. If the reasoning was that it just needed a nerf, why not just increase the cost to the point where an average player wouldn't even think about buying? Maybe in the high 2k's? even 3k?

God knows when I'm in games where I'm an intel and all I can do is watch an Avatar'ed Naix or a Drow w/silence destroy me, I'd be more then willing to pay 3k for the original Blink Dagger.


The old Dagger cost 2150 gold. It was already high for an item that gives no other stats other than giving a blink.  The cooldown has been raised to 30 secs before the big change.  It was a great item. I bet people could spend a lot more gold for it., 3k? 4k? This item ensured that you can get out of any gank if used correctly/creativity.  Just about any hero doesn't have a blink-like skill could use this item because it was that damn good back then.  

QUOTE
Essentially, all of you guys that are claiming blink was "overpowered" before, are supporting my claim that its useless now. When the blink is referenced as "overpowered" its usually within the context of using it in conjunction with some retardedly powerful ability. I.E. Luna with blink, troll with blink, sven with blink, blah blah. *insert any good hero + Blink*. So wat does enforcing a 3 sec/dmg/cooldown enforce? It allows those already strong heros to still initiate attacks with blink, but disallows underpowered heros from escaping?


Actually, that statement hurt your argument too, because if someone is about to a nasty skill using Blink, guess what's the counter to that tactic?  Yeah, getting your own Blink Dagger to escape from that combo.

Edited by Torchic Maniac, 20 August 2008 - 01:33 PM.


#14 wussyib

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 01:50 PM

QUOTE(Torchic Maniac @ Aug 20 2008, 02:33 PM) View Post


Actually, that statement hurt your argument too, because if someone is about to a nasty skill using Blink, guess what's the counter to that tactic?  Yeah, getting your own Blink Dagger to escape from that combo.


That doesn't make sense. I'm fighting against the 3 sec damage cool down, so how does hurt my arguement?

As good as some people are, have you ever seen people who can blink out every single time, simultaneously while initiating heros  blink in, without taking damage? Considering how fast I can personally blink and cast a spell using my mouse hotkeys, even in TDA and CAL leagues, that almost never happens.

Sometimes yes, most times, especially in team fights, u'll usually take a stun , or some sort of damage before you can react to blink out, especially if you're not using hot keys.

So no, that doesn't hurt my arguement.

Edited by wussyib, 20 August 2008 - 01:52 PM.


#15 TurnawayPucker

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 02:02 PM

QUOTE(Manwe_Sulimo @ Aug 18 2008, 02:24 PM) View Post

in the last versions before the dagger was changed you read in EVERY fucking guide of any hero except heroes with their own escape spells (blink itself, or similar spells, and ww) to buy dagger, it became simple excessivle overused

no it's fine as it is now, just needs to be a bit balanced now (gold cost, cd, mana cost -> lower)


So are you implying that items should only be somewhat useful? And only to a subset of heros? What about boots of speed?

If we accept the premise that blink as an ability is imbalanced, then the heros who have this ability innately are given an edge in terms of game balance when you remove the ability to escape using blink dagger.

Now, given that heros with the innate ability to blink are mostly at the top of the tier list already, you could achieve greater game balance by either giving other heros the option to be able to escape using blink, or by placing a damage-cooldown on innate blink abilities as well.

I also don't see how an item can be imbalanced... All heros can get all of the same items(with some minor exceptions, Pudge + Blink, etc...), so I don't understand how this debalances the game. It only changes the game dynamic by lowering the average amount of kills per game.

As a side effect though, allowing the other heros to blink opens up a new set of strategies for the game that takes into consideration this new mechanic.  In other words, more options equates to more tactical possibilities, which is one of the things that make dota fun in the first place. The sheer number of options and combinations.

Blink dagger should either have the damage-cooldown removed, or innate blink abilities should have a damage-cooldown added. As an additional balance, making blink dagger susceptible to silence could help bridge the gap.

Personally, I believe that adding more tactical options helps open up the game and adds complexity.

Thumbs up for changing it back.

#16 SilverSoultaker

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Posted 20 August 2008 - 02:35 PM

QUOTE
I don't fully understand any argument that classifies the old blink as overpowered. Most "god tier" heros, i.e. the strongest heros in the game have some form of blink. Morph has wave, void has timewalk, PA ha blink, Spirit breaker has netherstrike, etc. etc. etc. Obviously its redundant for many of these characters to get blink, so one of the main purposes of blink was to allow lower tiered heros the ability to escape the more ownage heros.


From that list of god teir heroes I assume your playing EM pubs or something of the sort.

But seriously, the old blink was far to strong.  Being able to escape from anything unless you were chain stunned or doomed was completly imbalanced..  Immunity to ganks should not happen without outstanding map awareness while having wards; but dagger of escape gave that.  No other item in the game gave that good of an ability or probably ever will.

The changing of blink dagger was probably the biggest change on the current metagame since the removal of the aegis which changed everything.  Removing dagger of escape stopped making chain stunners the only possible lineups, by increasing the value of heroes with DoTs, which brought them back into the game.  It also allowed some completly unused heroes to be played, because a single blink and they were rendered uneffective to be used.  Now with the change they are getting their time in the spotlight of competitive DotA.

And for those against a 3 second disable after being damaged, what do you suggest to be implamented instead?  Yay blink dagger for 3k gold.  All that would do is increase the length of the game because everybody will need to farm 900 more gold.  Greatly increase the cooldown would ruin heroes like Earth Shaker because they need the blink to initiate and do their outstanding kill combo.  So either way, you are skipping around the problem of keeping these heroes from feeding every game or at least being anything above low teir (yes not getting blink dagger would do that.)  Increasing the gold cost would only increase the length of the game, and increasing the cooldown would destory some heroes and remove the whole point of blink.

Blink dagger needed to be changed.  This may not be pleasing to some of you, but the change is balanced and it is here to stay.  If you can't except that then play 6.48(I think) DotA before blink was changed.  Sure the change was an ugly way to do it, but any other way would just ruin the item, increase the length of the game or both.

#17 wussyib

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 06:11 AM

QUOTE(SilverSoultaker @ Aug 20 2008, 03:35 PM) View Post

From that list of god teir heroes I assume your playing EM pubs or something of the sort.




Actually for about 2 years, all I did was play TDA and I played in the first 2 seasons of CAL . In the end I realized TDA is not any different then pubs, other then the fact that people don't leave as much, and CAL was the only place I ever got any games worth mentioning. Eventually CAL became to much of a comittment since 3 nights a week were being wasted waiting for games to be organized. (scheduled on wed, then teams would ask to reschedule another day, then that night would fall through, and before u know it, half the weeks nights are wasted waiting in front of a comp, getting emails that people keep bailing).

Assume = lose.

I never claimed any of my alternative propositions were right. I'm pretty sure I prefaced it before I suggested it, that it's probably not the best way.

I keep hearing the same redundant arguement against Dagger of Escape.

" The ability to blink out of ganks/dots/stuns/ etc. etc. is overpowered"

Yeah, and? Like' its been mentioned before, no one is preventing the other team from buying blinks as well. So what if your team fails to get a kill every 5v1 you organize because the 1 guy has a blink and escapes.

Buy... Your.....Own..... Blink. Problem solved. It's not that hard.

This is a more universal comment, but every patch in DOTA has a recurring theme. It makes the game easier for those with less playing ability.

#18 SilverSoultaker

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Posted 21 August 2008 - 03:10 PM

Ok, its just that you gave a list of 1v1 pubstomping heroes there.  Sorry for any mistake.

QUOTE
" The ability to blink out of ganks/dots/stuns/ etc. etc. is overpowered"

Yeah, and? Like' its been mentioned before, no one is preventing the other team from buying blinks as well. So what if your team fails to get a kill every 5v1 you organize because the 1 guy has a blink and escapes.

Buy... Your.....Own..... Blink. Problem solved. It's not that hard.


Ok, so every single person in every game has to buy a blink costing 2150 gold?  There ya go, the game just got even longer, when they are trying to shorten the length of the game.  2150 gold that everyone in the enitre game must get, making channeling spells, summons, and illusions rendered useless.  It made a select few heroes much more powerful than intended, and made alot of heroes that could be league quality left out because the enemy can blink away.  The only way to get close enough to land a spell back then was to blink in, or they would just run away/blink away.

You were unable to chase people with blink because you had to use yours to even get close enough to deal any damage.  It gave stunners a very unfair advantage, thus you were seeing teams with 4 or 5 stunners at once.

Blink increased the length of the game and lowered the total number of kills; made some amazing heroes much weaker than they should have been.

QUOTE
This is a more universal comment, but every patch in DOTA has a recurring theme. It makes the game easier for those with less playing ability.


Ok, I don't understand where this is coming from.  How is DotA in any way becoming easier for those with less playing ability?  The removal of aegis and blink made sure you had to be much more careful when pushing.  It got rid of your oh "I got my blink/aegis so even if all 5 of them come to gank me I will be fine" attitude, thus promoting more teamwork/more emphasis on big team battles instead of small scrims where maby one person would die.

Maby you would say that reducing of ganks would make it easier for weaker players because the game would just become a massive farmfest.  Look at the heroes that are being banned the most.  Warlock (picked or banned in every game) which makes sense as he is amazing in every sense of the word.  The 2nd top is Beastmaster.  He is a ganker with excelent defensive/countergank abilities.  That right there shows that ganking is wanted to happen, it's just near impossible to counter a jungling beastmaster.

DotA is in no way getting easier for those with less playing ability, it is getting harder.  For new people there at 91? heroes to learn.  Sure only about 20 of them are actully any good for leagues and such, but thats a much higher quality game which most people will never even play/watch(em pubbers mostly.)

#19 SpiritOfNoobs

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 09:05 PM

The new dagger has a fine concept. It does not need to be changed. Only the numbers need to be changed, such as gold cost and mana cost.

T-down. (1st T-down in a while, the remakes place is pretty good imo).

#20 flemeister

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Posted 23 August 2008 - 01:20 AM

Yes, those times where Sand King used Burrowstrike on QoP, channeled Epicenter, QoP blinked away, and SK used Dagger to go straight after her and get the kill. Awesome to watch, but in the end boring. A one click button to chase/escape, that couldn't be countered unless... the opponent had Blink too. Booooring.

Check out the myMYM and GotFrag sites, there's an interview somewhere there asking the top teams and players about their opinions of the 6.50 changes. The majority of them like it, including the Dagger change.




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